MOG

"Shit, I know more REAL niggaz at U-Haul than haul packs!" -Rhymefest Yeah, the whole drug dealer/rapper thing is getting really old.

And it seems that the music which portrays are people in the worst light, is the music that's blasted on the radio and MTV the most. But, the consumers are as much to blame for that as "The Man".

Anti-Amy: I was just in a discussion with a friend of mine about songs with adult themes. He was saying that Ludacris is a hypocrite for making songs like "Money Maker" (which he felt has some pretty adult themes) then turning around and handing out school supplies to poor school kids. Personally, I think adults make adult music for other adults. Hell, I love to fuck. Love to eat pussy. What's wrong with me writing a song about it?

being a white dude, i may be talking out of school, but to echo amy, i sometimes think that a lot of black artists do nothing but perpetuate negative stereotypes. turn on mtv and you're inundated with imagery of dudes treating their women as sex objects. their pants are falling off, gold teeth, gold jewelry, nothing but sex, partying, the thug life, violence, etc.

i absolutely realize that there are also white groups (particularly metal and heavy alt-rock idiots) who project the same imagery and attitudes, but it does seem to be prevalent in hip hop.

i always wonder what folks in the black community think of this aspect of hip hop.

and as a music fan, and (i like to think) a socially responsible human being, i long for more thought-provoking hip hop like tribe called quest, de la soul, boogie down productions, public enemy, jungle brothers, etc.

eshep: It's all about balance. And what you're seeing on MTV isn't balanced. The artists that could offset those negative images just aren't getting the publicity.

It's a fair question. Who makes the rules? Or do we make them for oursleves? Are there exceptions, and if so, are they more important than the status quo? Sometimes it's hard to see the rule for the exception. And sometimes the exception draws so much fire it has to run and hide.

Look at Fishbone. Easily one of the most talented, creative, flexible, and prolific acts of the 80s and 90s, and they could barely keep a record deal. Oh, and they were black. Coincidence? Hard to say. "Reality of My Surroundings" was a huge statement, with lots of racial commentary on it, and it went away fast (Sunless Saturday was the only single, I think). I even like "Give A Monkey A Brain" for it's unashamed metal flavor, but maybe that was too "white" for so-called alternative radio. I think they still sort of tour, now and then. Why couldn't radio and the labels figure out how to make a buck off them, and let them mature as an act? Or maybe their time had come and the public (black or white) could care less, even without corporate brainwashing. Once again, it's hard to say. Would they have lasted longer if they had catered more explicitly to a black audience? Was that even a goal they had in mind?

I saw Tackhead not long ago, talk about an amazing band. Doug Wimbish on bass, Bernard Fowler on vocals, and Skip "Little Axe" McDonald on guitar, all black, Keith LeBlanc on drums and Adrian Sherwood at the desk, white. Funky, creative, rocking, emotional, challenging, yes. Commercial success? Not quite. They have some songs that address race specifically, but even more than that, just them being on stage is a racial statement. The question is, are we the public ready to hear it?

I think, as in a democracy, we as listeners, like voters, get what we deserve. If we want more gangster rap shoved down our throats, we'll get it. Lots of people seem to think gangster rap is where it's at, so the labels are glad to oblige. Does it give a skewed, incomplete version of what it means to be black? Without a doubt. But does Beck really sum up whiteness? Kinda sorta? Is that even the artist's job? If you want Eminem, fine, the labels will provide it. And thank God, he is a truly subversive voice, as far as I can tell. Seeing him and Elton John onstage at the Grammys was wild - - it just goes to show, the bigwigs were ready to overlook tastless homophobia and let him into the clubhouse as long as the record sells. But I have to give it up to Eminem for being as honest as he is about race on his albums, it can only help. But it's up to the kids buying them, though, to listen, to HEAR, and to think for themselves.

I'm split, since I want artists to be brave, to represent and speak to something bigger than themselves, to tackle the hard issues like race, religion, and nationalism, but that leads to the whole role model argument. Who and what does 50Cent's owe for being famous? Why should he rap about staying in school? Wouldn't that be sort of a lame track? Is Judas Priest guilty when that kid blows his own jaw off? Was his choice somehow not his own? We have to be careful not to deny individuals their own agency. If Bono could write a song that persuaded everyone to be nice, would that be the best thing? Shouldn't we be obliged to figure that out as citizens and active participants, not as consumers of a product?

These are hard questions, thanks for asking them.

yeah, tp, i probably should have mentioned that in my post. i do listen to a lot of great, intellectual hip hoppers (mr. lif, the roots, etc., etc.). you are absolutely right about them not getting as much publicity as the other, less positive content.

just like anything, i guess, people are voyeurs. just like people love to watch COPS, and the sopranos, and just like the news is all about murders and war, people want to get a glimpse of the crazy life, the violence, and the drugs.

hey, i love the ghostface record. and i certainly have put money into the bank accounts of some of the more stereotype-perpetuating artists out there. tp is right, it would be nice to have more of a balance. eating candy all the time isn't healthy for you.

the same can be said about artists like southern culture on the skids in regards to how they perpetuate stereotypes about poor white folks in the south. i find them to be a bit offensive, being a white southerner who does not live in a double-wide, who doesn't date his sister, and who isn't a character from 'deliverance'.

Isnt the MTV factor partly that "black" music is being marketed at white teens and so adopts a "dangerous" attitude which doesnt accuratley portray black people. I also think that part of the problem is that people assume that all black music is hip-hop and ignore more traditional music, although some African music does seep through here in the UK.

Personally I try to live a colourblind life and judge music (and people for that matter) on it's quality (or personality), regardless of the ethnicity

Anti-Amy: You have to admit there's something catchy to "Wait 'til you see my dick!" I mean, it's funny, it's simple, it's ignorant...but at the same time it says so much. It's real, it's powerful, it's confident. It's got a lot of subtleties to it.

It's not that easy to stay away from MTV. They are people like the rest of us & they need to make a living. If they want to deal with the whole thing, MTV should change. We can't expect artists to stay away from MTV. But we can hope that MTV might change. It won't, but that doesn't stop me from hoping.

I fully and completely agree with eshep. As I said in your last post, I go to an HBCU, and it's hard to see that many people are listening to the more socially responsible hip-hop, and that that is having any effect on my classmates. I listen to it because I'm progressive, and it's motivational, and it's damn good music. I'm still a newbie to it (thanks for the list, Eric), as I only have 2 Roots CDs (Things Fall Apart and Game Theory), plus some unintelligible hip-hop (to me - they're from African artists, such as Zola), but have had a lost of people recommend Public Enemy to me based on my politics. It'd be awesome if hip-hop were an instrument for social change, but a lot of it is all about a lifestyle that quite a few people will never see (for various reasons, some of them structural).

AND...the day when Bob Marley is again seen as a revolutionary instead of a potsmoking Rasta hippie (like so many people seem to view him as) is going to be a great day when we can all

Also, there are a number of black artists who're pushing boundaries. Ben Harper and Robert Randolph are getting down to the roots of music of the 20th century and blending it with what's new, for instance.

Like was said in the thread about school violence, there's a stigma against black people in the media. Our perception of people of color in music is very much controlled by the corporate powers that be, and it's unrepresentative, so when we say we see a bunch of hip hop artists who're only singing about the bling bling and whatnot, it's because that's what Sony says people wanna hear. There's underground hip-hop, and some of it is really good and against this (from what I'm not seeing more and more as I'm exploring more indie music).

Anti-Amy: You have to admit there’s something catchy to “Wait ‘til you see my dick!”

remember when songs like 'my sharona' were the dirtiest things on the radio?

all this kinda makes me sigh a bit. i used to not think about it, but now that i have children, it's a little disheartening to see songs like 'the whisper song' hit number one. this has nothing to do with race, however. jesse mccartney and justin timberlake are just as racy (ok, not quite). but there is that element of over-the-top objectification in mainstream hip hop that is depressing.

we discussed making and marketing music to adults, but the problem is that songs like 'the whisper song' end up number one because of 8-14 year old kids. talk about getting a warped sense of self at such a vulnerable age. would be so much cooler to see 10 year old girls mouthing the words to 'black woman' off of 'done by the forces of nature'.

lol... Anti-Amy: I think that's a different song altogether. The Yell song. "HEY, GIRL! COME BACK AND GET ON THIS DICK!!!"

Okay, I have officially taken this thread on a turn for the worse.

And, you know what? I'd do it again!

But, it's kind of hard to lay the blame on the negative images in hip-hop. The radio plays what people buy. People buy what the radio plays.

Yeah, we'd all like to say "Fuck the radio." But, MTV and radio are running the show. There needs to be a MOG TV!!!

I'm game with that & I want to run for VJ too.

I place the blame entirely on the heads of the artists and their fans. I don't listen to the radio so I am not going to buy into the concept that people are stuck with what they hear on the radio (or see on MTV). If people didn't want that music it wouldn't be popular. If those artists respected themselves or their fan base they wouldn't be putting that crap out. And that goes for gansta rappers and little white girls shaking their asses in their videos (Britney, Brooke Hogan, Pussycat Dolls).

Can we come up with a great list of hip-hop that doesn't sexually objectify everybody and anybody and that isn't all about the benjamins? eshep started one, I'd love to know more.

Okay I tried to post a comment, wrote this long post but damn connection broke... Anyway to add my two cents i will say this... When it comes to race and music, i think that unless it is stated directly you should shrug it off and not given a second thought. I mean think about it; generally an artist uses their life experience and culture that they grew up with when they create, when immitated or deleted from existence music often ends up flat and lifeless leaving the artist looking shallow (e.g. most pop music). Instead of addressing the race issue with music, we should more address the responsibilty of each artist for the media that they put out to be sampled and explored by so many. Remember what you say always comes back to you, put out crap and the review and persecution you receive from others will result in each negative format you could possibly imagine. Doing what you know and where you come from does not always have to end in the race and hate zone... But as much as we try to keep where we come from seperate from how we speak and write, the more we back ourselves into a lack of creativity... So I guess all that can be done is to do what you do, but be aware of the consequences that follow. Which means candyman, when this track is finished I want to hear what you have to say, you as the artist. Good topic man...

Chucky: I'm sure you, and most moggers, have a pretty diverse source of musical input. But, we're in the minority. And, it's a proven fact that the more you hear something, the more you like it. I mean, how many times have you had a song that you don't even like just grow on you? That's the job of radio and MTV. To make you like shit that you don't like. "What? The new 50 Cent song sucks? Listen to it every hour on the hour and get back to me tomorrow." The fact is, your average Joe Consumer isn't a hard-core music head like most of us are. They don't want to think, dig and read to find what's hot. They want the radio and television and radio to TELL them what's hot. I think it's human nature to want to be led.

Music is the eternal universal language of life always unfolding...despite MTV, BET mainstream radio, and the media. As I sit here writing this post someone is writing a song, someone is recording, someone is humming a new tune, someone is playing an instrument, and someone is discovering their musical ability for the first time. Unfortunately in an age of commodification and mass consumerism your art is only as good as what can be quantified and sold. The more you are able to sell the higher your value irregardless of quality. As more and more labels begin to merge and coporate consolidation rules this will continue to be the moray of the day. HOWEVER there will always be GOOD AMAZING INSPIRATIONAL music on this planet. It will just force those of us to look in unconventional places for it (read:MOG). If you are looking to the mainstream for your musical options you are looking in vain.

Seek and ye shall find!

It may be hard for MOGgers to remember this fact, because by definition we're pretty much all lovers of music for music's sake. (How does that smoke feel going up your ass?) But the majority of music "consumers" see their music as a social choice rather than an aesthetic one. Especially with teenagers, you are what you listen to, and who you listen to it with. How it sounds is secondary. So the real question might be, Why would people even want to entertain a fantasy about dealing crack, smoking weed, drinking Cristal, riding around in limos and having porn-star wannabes draped all over them? When did that bundle of clapped-out cliches become the definition of living well? Yeah, okay, it "sells." But why? What the fuck is wrong with us?

Troy - there is truth in that. Songs that you've heard a zillion times can grow on you. But, I still don't buy it. ivylander put it better than I could in the comment right above this one. Case in point - I actually own Ludacris's Splash Waterfalls because I liked the way it sounded the few times I heard. It comes up on shuffle sometimes and I can't listen to the whole song. It turns me off. I don't care how many times I hear something that tells me I'm a golddigger or a whore - I am not going to respond positively to it. It's insulting and degrading. Rapping about shooting people is insulting and degrading too because it portrays young black men as criminals. Why would anyone support that?

I'd also add that there are plenty of musical options even available mainstream that aren't negative. They aren't the ones that get voted for on TRL I'm betting.

even though im white, sometimes i really wish rock n roll was still a primarily black form of music, because i think it would be better.

I think this discussion is coming off the rails a bit. Somehow, we've gotten off the topic of music and back onto the topic of racial portrayal through the media eye. I don't think race plays all that much a part in music, or the creation of music, as people think except in the most primitive sense. What it boils down to, and what everyone here keeps coming back to, is how that music is presented in the various outlets, i.e. videos, radio, magazines, etc. Saying that black rappers represent themselves in a negative light because they rap about bling and sex and blunts is silly because in the end it's no different from white rock stars singing about sex, drugs & rock n roll. It's that same rock n roll fantasy lifestyle that everyone dreamed about when Led Zeppelin was pillaging the countryside, updated for a new century. Same make, different model.

Kudos, Candyman, that was a hell of a post that has set off a great conversation. Mog is great place to explore the nitty-gritty philosphical details involved with music, and this post makes me happy I'm here...but I wish I had a way to fix the music industry and make 'em stop selling garbage.

Swoz:You need to check out Mr. Lif. He's one of the most articulate, thought provoking MCs in America...Also check out Dead Prez, Blackstar, Company Flow and Erik B. & Rakim. Make sure you check Erik B. first, "cause you've never heard hip hop until you've listened to Rakim on a mountaintop."

I go back and forth about the whole mass culture phenomenon. It used to piss me off, "How can people be so stupid," etc etc. But hey, it's a big world if you've got eyes to see. Me, I like having options. Like a MOG said yesterday, he digs him some Kelis every now and then. Fair enough, it's well-done, catchy, and it gets the job done. I can get with some current pop, just don't limit me to it. After some Michael Jackson, I LOVE it when Bartok comes up on my shuffle. Mass culture has it's place, just don't take Rolling Stone and Entertainment Tonight at their word when they try to tell you how "important" the new [whoever] album is.

It's like news. How mad can you actually get at the NYT or any other paper for not printing "the whole truth." Censorship is offensive, but let's get real. If you really care about the truth, look for it, read 5 papers and split the difference. Read a socialist paper, read the Wall Street Journal and zero out your propaganda-meter. It's naive and unctuous to presume that the NYT even WANTS you to know the truth. Christ, you get better news about the rest of the world in Cuba. F the truth, what the NYT needs is that half-page Cartier ad on page 3, and if you have a brain that can read between the lines, great, enjoy the news they say is fit to print.

Same with music. Let pure pop do its thing and don't hate, but let the rest of us use our brains and get on with it. All Hail MOG!

i think diversity in music is there but not openly present.record labels push what they think will sell/get the big bucks.they are more concerned with what's gonna make that dollar than the substance therein.

in some cases i do think it's the artist fault because many don't stay true to who they are and are just as money hungry as the record companies which feed off of them.i personally think that most artists are hypocritical because on the one hand you have them going to benefit that are supposedly there to help and inspire people to become better but,on the other hand you have them pertuating the same stereotypes that so many have worked hard to get away from.

i understand that many of the women and men choose to be in those positions,and are in fact,right where they want to be but the images that they put out there is not saying that this specific person is like this or that way,they are saying the whole population of men or women-mainly women- are this or that way;and with this comes a great disrespect that happens to many people...i'm pretty sure when artist/companies submit these videos to MTV,BET, and fuse,that they know that the major audience for these songs will be kids(and yes,while the parents are fully responsible for their kids actions/inactions they aren't the sole cause either).

i have no problem for freedom of expression,in fact,i think it's the greatest thing on earth but with the power to communicate with massive waves of a populace one most have the fore-thought and presence of mind to know what their expression can create in people.

Holyfool, you're absolutely right about sex-and-drugs-and-rock-and-roll being as lame as bling-and-blunts-and-Escalades. They're both products of impoverished imaginations. But Candyman might argue (and I would definitely agree with him) that the two are not thought of in the same way: White people as a group are not stigmatized for their stereotypical choices (aren't Wayne and Garth cute fuckups?) in the same way that black people are stigmatized for theirs. That is unfair and sucks profoundly.

How do I think it's represented? What's it's role?

I think it serves to divide listeners into specific groups and as a marketing tool. Unfortunately, it also seems to go the other way, dictating what type of music you will make.

Let me explain.

If you're black, you listen to black music, it seems. I live in a fairly (ok, pretty much totally) white world (much to my chagrin), but I don't really see a lot of black folk rushing out to buy the new Wilco record. Look at most of the discussion here - it's focused on rap. Not Jazz. Not Rock. You brought up rap, but if you said "black music" to most anyone, they'd say "rap". But, interestingly enough, all things black in American popular culture are "cool" to the white people. As here, you'll see white folks listening to rap, all kinds. Again, though, I don't see a lot of black folks at the Yo La Tengo show. They're not hanging out at the Teenage Fanclub merch table. So there's a black-to-white crossover, but not really a white-to-black.

As a marketing tool, it's how you reach that audience. Kind of like the "black cinema" - there are movies made by and for black people. It seems that in film there's more of a crossover, when you have artists like Will Smith able to pull a movie by himself. But that's an interesting discussion in itself. What kind of movies do you watch? I try to go all over - that's part of the beauty of cinema, it can tell long-form stories from another culture & society's viewpoint.

As far as dictating what type of music you'll make - how many black rock/indie rock artists are there? I remember finding The Veldt in college and loving the music, regardless of what color they were. The music I like has to do with the music. I love some rap - PE, Nappy Roots, De La, The Streets. But I also liked Living Colour, too. But it's like baseball or golf - how many young black musicians are making that sort of music? How many are making "indie rock"? How many are making spazz rock? How many are making screamo?

Then again, is it a chicken/egg thing? How many young (or old) black musicians are exposed to The Smiths or The Cure or The Futureheads or Arpanet or Swervedriver or Matthew Sweet or ... well, you should get the idea by now. How many black kids fall in love with the sonic textures of the Cocteau Twins or Sigur Ros? They might like BB King or Jimi Hendrix, but how many are into John Mayer or Stevie Ray Vaughn?

You know what I'm sayin'?

I'm not so sure that black people are as ignorant of white music as you might think, Sam. I got great advice on what Sleater-Kinney to pick from a very smart and tasteful black woman who's on this site. My wife's family, which has exactly no music fanatics in it, knows as much about what's playing on the white pop stations as on the "urban" stations. Granted, the more esoteric stuff is not on their radar, but that's true of most white people as well.

You're probably right, ivy. Again, I moved from SF to Denver suburbs (grew up here, knew what I was getting into, unfortunately) and I don't have that much to inform me about black knowledge of "white" music. I wish I did.

And I suppose "ignorant" is the right word, too. Maybe blacks just ignore it like many whites seem to do with rap?

I'm not saying that the "smart and tasteful" don't exist. They absolutely do. That's why I'm drawn to MOG in a way I'm not drawn to other sites that I really like. Like last.fm. The discourse here seems to be front-and-center, with everybody playing and not just shoved off into genre corners.

It's more of what I want music discourse to be: throw it all in the pot and mix it up.

And you're here (as well as candyman) to inform me about the experience on other sides of the fences 'cause I don't have any direct outlets to find out, currently.

Again, a situation which I hope changes.

Once again, it can be hard to see the rule for the exception.. . or, wait... maybe it's the other way around...

We can debate the relatively few and too-far between bands like Living Color, Fishbone, 24-7 Spyz, Bad Brains, P-Funk, do you see where I'm going? Name one of those that didn't get steamrollered by the business. (Sure, I know, lots of bands with no black folks in them did too). Prince, Hendrix, Sly, Chuck Berry, it's endless, black Ameican musical flexibility is not the issue. Anyone remember Mother's Finest? Christ, the Bus Boys rule.

It's not so much about how many "black rock" or "black indie" bands there are, but seeing how black people, everywhere, every day, play every kind of music. Is it less "black" if it's folk and not "black music?" Is there "black folk?" Since the beginning of the industry, every "black" music ever created has had a corresponding marketing pose to sell records for someone, Rap and hiphop are just self-detemined poses, so more power to them - - but also big deal. A lot of it sucks, and some of it is awesome, just like all commerically-mediated musical posing methods everywhere have always been. NOT EVERYONE IS INTERESTING, so I can still be entertained if you're good.

Think about this: Robert Johnson is widely and rightly considered to be one of the truly influential historical pillars ever of African American musical understanding, instrumental mastery, poetic expression, and social/historical narrative through art (never mind life...). Consider this is based on some 29 songs spread across 42 recordings made over the space of THREE DAYS spanning 2 years. How much does that tell you? A lot, I guess, but not too much. The rest of the time, you can bet the dude rode the fricken rails, playing guitar to make a buck, doing what it took. HE was touring before there were records. That was what you did, because you were no-good, not like nice people, you kept moving because you helped people party and lose it. (and coincidentally that's the way it got done in Africa back when, where the musicians shows up once a year bringing news from the neighboring towns and entertainment, he flatters the chief and everyone parties, and then he is shown the road the next day. See ya).

You can count on it, Johnson sang pop songs in French to French lumberjacks in the Rockies, he sang Tin Pan Alley tunes to city folk in Saint Louis, and he wrote his own blues at the same time. He sang what was around him, but he always sung it his way. Is playing a popular tune of the day in a city accent for city folks less "black" then singing a holler? Kinda, right? But even if dude is black? What is black?

Or maybe black, as in "blackboard," as in something that can be signed on or cyphered on any way you want.

What do YOU think is black?

This has been a really interesting discussion, and I'm glad to have found a place where this discussion can be had in a rational, respectful way. Way to go, Moggers.

It's interesting to think about the question "What is black?" In the days before MTV and video, I'm sure most people didn't really care what color an artist was just as long as the music was good, mainly because there was no way someone could google an artist and see who they were. When Elvis first started, most people thought he was black because of the way he sounded. Does that make his music "black music"? I'm just as sure many were surprised to find out Jimi Hendrix was a black man. Did he play "white music"?

Someone brought up the point that when we mention "black music", we all automatically think of rap. Well rap just happens to be the dominant form of music in the marketplace these days and is having the biggest impact right now on American culture, and it just so happens to have been created mainly by black artists. Had this been 1970, we'd be talking about soul and funk, 1940 it'd be jazz, 1930 it'd be blues. Right now it just happens to be rap because these are the times we live in. I'm still convinced that it has nothing to do with the music itself than how it's presented. Unfortunately, most of the people in charge of deciding how to present it happen to be white. And ignorant.

A lot of DJs thought Chuck Berry was white...

lol...I thought (or, rather, ASSUMED) Eminem was black when I first heard him.

"even though im white, sometimes i really wish rock n roll was still a primarily black form of music, because i think it would be better"

and of course ROCK IS the best form of music

it IS a primary black form of music DUH rock was born from the blues,slave songs and African rhythms. why are you not DEAD canyman,i think i used the wrong packaging,with a priority shipping label stupid help yourself USPS postage docks.i paid 4.05 to have it there by SAT. you should be dead by now

ps:chuck berry and little richard are the founders and kings of rock-n-roll

Can we take this back up a level?

I don't really like making a whole mix CD and noticing that, as far as I know, every band on it is white. But there aren't a lot of other ethnic groups making Scottish twee or Swedish dance music. I'm not seeking to listen to music by people who look like me, but that is how it often turns out.

I think it probably does have something to do with the music emphasized by young people of each racial group, and that's true of me too. Just having knowledge of another group's music doesn't mean that you'll grow up to play it.

I think things will balance out more with time, but I don't really see the status quo as a major problem. Most people who hate rap music don't hate black people and most people who hate country music don't hate white people. Neither of my favorite bands are all one ethnicity. There is more to racial relations (and life) than music.

Where'd I leave my wallet? That's right - El Segundo.

You make some good points. Two things I'd like to say...It is only because there is so much diversity of music these days, and the ease of finding it on the Internet that this discussion exists. Yeah to all. Second, rap these days is right about where metal was in the late 1980's. Drugs, cars, and cheap women. All shine and no substance. And we remember what happened in 1990, don't we? Great post c.