MOG

hard to believe mickey would lend his voice to a segment that opens and closes with a direct-drive TT. ;)

you can have it both ways however, record in analog on 15" tape, DSD master, playback on SACD. then, even a cheap $149 oppo will get you awfully close to the absolute sound.

Great post. The debate continues even to this day, probably because CD's sound the same if not worse than they did when this segment aired. Listen to a CD from the 80's and then listen to a reissued version of the same CD from the 90's or now and the 80's copy will actually sound better. Comes from being compressed to hell. 1234chainsaw had a good post on this subject which linked to this article.

http://songbytoad.com/2007/11/22/the-steady-demise-of-recording-quality/

It's no coincidence more bands are releasing their music on vinyl again.

It's funny how digital got everybody rich and is now putting many of those same folks out o' business. As for MTV, after I became kinda bored with videos, their News division was the only reason I watched. I think the segments ran at 10 to the hour and I'd always flip over.

Wow, never seen Neil Young so animated off stage. Fascinating stuff, thanks. And, as davesonic says, a nice corollary to 1234chainsaw's post earlier this week.

Not planned for today. but i just bought a record player about an hour ago. Not as much for the audiophile in me as much as I did it for the rare track collector in me. :)

Crank the tape to distortion then roll back 1db -- that's how you record rock and roll, according to the David Briggs and Roy Thomas Baker schools of production. You can't get that with digital. But drop some dope beats and a wicked flow and digital just, unmm, rocks. Compressing everything to helll and gone is what makes CDs sound so crap.

compression blows. i have a special cd of a bunch of great famous songs without the compression. you have no idea how good they sound. this guy is a very famous recording engineer who had access to the master tapes and gives it out to friends. a friend of a friend gave it to me.

it's sad when an engineer uses the car stereo as their ultimate monitoring tool because they assume everyone listens to music on shitty car stereos.

Hear hear. My other bugbear is remastering where the engineer "updates" the original mix and makes it sound "modern" with lots of separation and proper instrument placement. I gave Mrs. Ingham a Burt Bacharach Best Of for Xmas last year and the Dionne Warwick tracks are unrecognisable. all the magic and "air" had vanished in a stereo wash. I say these engineers should be made to work in muzak factories as punishment.

I still say the most seventies recordings could almost be text books for quality separation and production values. Even look at some of the comedy albums like Cheech and Chong made or any of the Monty Python albums. They are a true listening experience!

Sadly albums now are so "loud" (read compressed as hell) in hopes that they'll sell better when played in record stores (remember those things?).

Agreed, compression sucks. I'm going Ogg Vorbis w/ my digital when I have the time...

well, there is dynamic compression and file compression. too different things. ogg vorbis will solve your file compression issue but you cannot fix dynamic compression done in the studio.

I have a friend who is an LP maniac. We have done some major A/B testing and by far the best sound quality came from an LP. You also have to understand that the quality you get also depends on the press of the LP, but what you can hear in the described nuances is totally real. The hiss, inflections, reverb...all these things can get lost in the digital format. To me nothing beats hearing music off 2 inch analog tape.

Someone who saw a post about it on Audio Asylum alerted me to that video being posted on YouTube. I hadn't seen it since 1993 but I stand by every word of it. Vinyl is still the best sounding format not because it sounds "warm," but because when played back correctly it sounds more like live music. Yes DSD recordings are really good. For instance there's an SACD of a live Alison Krauss recording that's amazing. However, for whatever reasons, the Mobile Fidelity vinyl box set sounds even better on a good front end analog rig. Look: it's all "signal processing" when you try to cram an orchestra or a rock group into a bunch of microphones and store it on tape or hard drive. For some reason, when you cut a lacquer and turn the waveforms into etches in lacquer and finally into a record it just sounds magical. That's why vinyl's coming back. It was the cover story of Billboard last week. I always hoped it would happen to some degree, but what's happening now is mind-blowing. Kids are buying turntables in ever increasing numbers and its spreading "virally" the way MP3 downloads did during the Napster era. One kids tells another about it, or better yet, just plays him some familiar files as high resolution vinyl and it's like seeing HDTV for the first time. I made a turntable set-up DVD last year and it's sold more than 7000 copies already and it's still selling well. I hear from young people all the time who've bought it and are so happy they've gotten into vinyl...not for everything...for some things files are fine, but for the "special" music you just want to sit down and really pay attention to (the way my gen did with every new record), they're buying the vinyl. Much of it now comes with a free MP3 download so you can have the high rez vinyl and the MP3 for your iPod. The best of both worlds...--Michael Fremer

just finished listening to the SCO/Mackerras Mozart Requiem, on 24/96 Studio Master FLAC files, and it's truly some of the best sound i've ever had in my system. don't need a cd player or a good front end analog rig. just my Powerbook, and a decent DAC.

The analog vs. digital debate could go on forever. Much like many of the Mog debates on whose more metal, or are the Doors as great as everyone claims. I think we would all agree that there are flaws with todays commercial recordings, compression is bad, etc. I'm not going to debate Mr. Fremer on the finer points, because I would be way out of my league - he is obviously respected for his opinions on this matter. I do however agree with boing boings tech editor Joel Johnson, that the audiophile industry is an over hyped market with disappointing returns on investment. I think a lot of it is number comparison vs. actual audibility. I really don't think things thickness of speaker wire and insulation do as much for sound as audiophiles claim.

There is something so physical magical about holding a record, and dropping a needle on it. Put your ear up close to the needle and hear a miniature pre amplified version of what comes out of your speakers. It's modern day alchemy. I also enjoy the length of an LP, as I think it's more enjoyable than so many of the 74 minute, throw away albums that CD's produced.

The answer probably lies somewhere between the two. A good synthesis of analog and digital recording. Sadly we emphasize things like bass in stereo set ups over things like balance, fidelity, and speaker placement.

great Great post. Thank you David.

Almost 15 years since that news segment, the debate points still persist.

Personally, it's been heartbreaking for me to see a trail of decades old analog recording studios folded one after another due to the sharp popularity of digital home recording. It's really sad to see people in their 50s or 60s, who spent their entire lives perfecting the controling of analog 'nuances' to only be considered obsolete.

I predict (or is it wishful thinking?) that the analog recording+vinyl productions will make their way back (however digitally controlled.) It will be for the target market of the elite listeners amongst us. Live music shows will also recover because of dynamic contrasts from hearing it from CDs, and after decades the MTV fatigue - finally.

I just can't imagine art can survive too long on ideas over substance.. sufficient over quality. Or maybe I'm just a die hard old school.

Note to self : pick up turntable new needle TODAY.

analog, but of course... no need for a debate.

one of my clients... he's a famous recording star... listens to CASSETTES of his work in his car on the freeway, by the way - not because he thinks people listen to crappy stereos... but because he wants to hear how his record sounds in traffic and if it is distracting... because we live in LA, i suppose....

i worked in the evil mtv empire for 5 years.... i have never ever worked anywhere in my life where so many people didn't know squat about music.... seriously.... when i worked at KFC for 4 days when i was in college (great ploy to get $ from parents i gotta tell you!)... even those fryers and chicken slingers knew way more about what was good music and had an articulate opinion of why they did or didn't like certain bands, songs, etc... not at mtv though...

obviously, technology will not close pandoras box and put the chaos back in BUT.... if you record to tape, mix to tape, master to tape and then and only then transfer to digital... you'll still get a wonderful warm sound.... costly yes? but what value is a crap sounding "record" on cd?

"…. if you record to tape, mix to tape, master to tape and then and only then transfer to digital… you’ll still get a wonderful warm sound…. costly yes? but what value is a crap sounding “record” on cd?"

The value is the cost out of my pocket. ; P

And now I'm sad I just unloaded a whole pile of vinyl at my local record shop this past weekend (shady dog records) ... pere ubu, monty python, wire, monsoon, sonic youth's death valley 69, and more.

Grievous angel: I like that site you linked to-- maybe that is the answer- a tiered purchasing system so audiophiles can buy the high quality stuff, down to compressed mp3s (of which I knew very little until I read 1234chainsaw's post).

But here's the question-- what degree of speaker and system quality do you need to hear this level of quality? Most of the time I find myself listening on my PC speakers or my iPal, only rarely on a stereo anymore. And are there quality products or methods to convert old vinyl to digital on a home system, that won't break my bank?

Great post!

Someone wrote:

" I do however agree with boing boings tech editor Joel Johnson, that the audiophile industry is an over hyped market with disappointing returns on investment. I think a lot of it is number comparison vs. actual audibility. I really don’t think things thickness of speaker wire and insulation do as much for sound as audiophiles claim."

Poor Joel Johnson. He confuses an audio system with an "investment." Sorry, that's not what it's about. It's about an audio system. The thickness of cable is not the issue. I wonder why people who buy expensive cars, wine. watches etc. don't get questioned the way audiophiles do. I guarantee whoever wrote what's above would easily hear what spending money on audio gear provides. It's not difficult to hear at all.

I think the best way to describe analogue-Warts and all. 6 months ago i bought a Yamaha turntable and dusted off all my vinyl-beautiful sound but you need decent speakers. Mine were locally made here in Brisbane Australia 23 years ago and are still as good as anything i have heard since.

Note to Contrabandwidth:

Smells Like Teen Spirit was a digitally mastered recording produced by ex-Spooner member Butch Vig ( later of Garbage) at Smart Studios in Madison WI. He cut up the riffs on that record and spliced it together on a workstation to give it that special sound we all adored.

analog fan Albini worked on Nirvana's less sucessful followup LP/CD

Back in the 90's even the beginning on the millinia would have said hybrid the recording (anolog recording\digital mix). Also many factors are in play, soundmans knowledge/creativety, producer, ect. . I agree with Dave Mustang from a musician point of view, digital is a pain in the ass. And shows how much you suck, and need to lock yourself away for a while and practice. For the fan, that means crap, you just want your music in the end. But digital has come a long, long, long, way...

PS

Like I always say, they should just offer it all, I'll still take the early Van Halen re-masters over the original vinyl. The records are just collectors items for me...

RGM, i recently met with rick rubin down at his house in malibu.

we talked about this for a while. i said, "if it was recorded in analog, i buy the vinyl, if it was recorded digitally, i buy the cd."

his was response was that since the advent of the cd, so much more work goes into the mastering of the cd than the vinyl, that even if it was recording in analog, the cd will usually be better.

so i've changed my thinking. recorded before 1985, i buy the vinyl. recorded after 1985, i should buy the cd.

although there are certainly exceptions to this rule! like the wilco stuff and califone. to my ears, the vinyl is supreme in every way.

btw, i have a pretty serious vinyl rig. if it was any less, not sure you'd extract all the value from vinyl of cd

-d

Wow very cool Dave, thanks for the INFO, very interesting makes me want to go through my old sound engineering text from 85-86. It's all anolog information & just starts to mention the coming of the digital age. So do they have the light needle yet, or did I just give that one away lol! Had that idea for a few years now, they just came out with the light Pick Up for bass guitar. BTW Dave, I think you should buy the vinyl and put your record rig to great use... Ray

PS we got a pretty standard vinyl sytem, a tecneqa turntable. That is all....

|;^[)>

http://bassplayer.tv/index.html?req=1&station=bpgear

Sorry thats a really old Technics, also there are a lot of guys out there in a million dollar studio's who think the darn things run themselves. Yea there is the pro-tools audimation thing, but some peeps have been bamboolzooled!

PS

There is some software for mastering, but mastering really is an art in itself. Eddie Cramer knows it well...

PS part 3...

Do you know where they sell the old anolog recording equipment Dave? Like to mess with anolog tracking\digital mixing, I find really expensive used dated gear on ebay. But wondering if anyones still making any new gear like reel to reel 1/4 to 2 inch stuff? I know they still sell they tape...

http://www.audiogon.com

or....

ebay

In speaking to musician Eddie Benitez yesterday he informed me that he prefers the sound of vinyl over digital only because it is more crisp and clear than digital. Further he informed me too that his sound engineers who have worked with him over the 31 years, he has been in the business prefer vinyl too. Though they do not knock digital, vinyl is their preference. In fact, Eddie Benitez asked me if I had a record player. Unfortunately I sold mine a decade ago although I still have records.

If you look at Brookstone, they are even selling record players that convert records to mp3 files to be burned a CD. However, I heard the quality is not great. My question though is why is it in some stores in NYC, I do see albums being sold. Why is that?! Who is buying these records?! Why are record players still being made is another question too? I know many people in Africa and the Middle East who buy records and convert them to MP3. Is the market there?

Brookstone Turnable Converts to MP3 http://www.brookstone.com/store/product.asp?product_code=568279&wid=11&cid=1101&sid=110108&search_type=subcategory&prodtemp=t2

Eddie Benitez www.myspace.com/eddiebenitez

Thanks for sharing!

"btw, i have a pretty serious vinyl rig. if it was any less, not sure you’d extract all the value from vinyl of cd"

This is why I think this debate is on the wrong track. I wrote a piece here that includes a much more up to date clip from the PBS Wired Science show.