WHERE MUSIC LISTENS TO YOU

a musical dilemma

Posted over 3 years ago
I’ve posted before about religion and music. Since I’ve already touched on one distasteful subject I might as well hit another – politics and music. I am very particular about my politics and, unfortunately for me, a lot the musicians whose music I enjoy do not share my political beliefs. I won’t monetarily (or otherwise) support things I don’t believe in. I find it very difficult to overlook things like that. For example, I was given a burned copy of System of a Down’s Mezmerize. The first time I heard B.Y.O.B. I thought it was brilliant. Then, I caught the lyrics and took exception. When the cd was given to me, I tossed it. I couldn’t bring myself to play the music - I felt it was irresponsible.A couple of days ago I caught the video for Rise Against “Prayer of the Refugee.” From the first few notes, I knew I was going to love it. I got excited – hearing something new that was really, really good. But, as the video kept going I realized it was an indictment of the Western way of life, our box stores, and the cheap labor that supplies them. It was a 3-minute advertisement for fair trade. I was instinctively suspicious, because – well, I am a “capitalist (pig in training).” I like money, I like making money, and I like spending money. I also believe that the free market (assuming it is approached with integrity) is the answer to, well, almost all of the problems in the world. So, I wrote off the song.Today, my husband and I were shopping and, as we were browsing cds, I told him about it. How I saw the video and loved the song but that I couldn’t buy it and it pissed me off. He goes “Oh yeah. Rise Against – they’re awesome. Don’t you remember they did that song where the video was against animal cruelty?” And, I did remember. I refused to watch that video because I was afraid it would be graphic and I didn’t want to see that. So, then I was doubly pissed. My husband had just confirmed that (1) their music was great and (2) they have vastly different beliefs than I do. (I should point out here that I don’t believe in animal cruelty. But, I also don’t believe in not eating meat and I think hunting is less cruel than death by car due to overpopulation.)Anyway, I got home tonight and I really, really wanted the Rise Against album. So, I decided to read about the band and their beliefs. Then I read a little about fair trade – and fair trade vs. free trade. From what I gathered, fair trade is an answer to unethical free trade in a global market. I still think that working for less than would be acceptable in a developed country is better than having no income at all - which would be a potential outcome of aggressive fair trade. But, I think that even if it’s not the most feasible solution to the problem it is, at least, an honest approach to a real problem. And, if it can be incorporated into a free market (companies freely choosing to follow fair trade practices rather than gov’t imposed fair trade) it could greatly benefit, not only the poor in underdeveloped countries, but the rest of us too – by increasing competition and decreasing aid.I need to learn more. I don’t think I’ll change my stripes because of this. But, I learned a little and I felt ok about it. Which worked out in my favor, because I now own a kick ass album.

Comments (53)

  1. watchbatteries says Somehow I kinda knew where this was going halfway through the first paragraph. What you'll see is that most MOGgers are probably going to be on the other side of the spectrum (myself included). Also, you mentioned two political songs, the other being "All U Can Eat" (which Ben wanted to title "Give No Fuck"). But, there's nothing wrong wiht belonging to the other side of most musicians (hey, Joey? I think it was Joey? Maybe it was Johnny? Ramone was conservative). It doesn't automatically make you some sort of nutcase, or anything. But yeah, good post.
    Permalink posted 12/02/2006
  2. chucky says Haha. I hope being on the other end of the political spectrum isn't what makes me a nutcase. I'd like to think I have other traits that really swing me towards nutcase. In any case, just for the record, I am only an economic conservative, not a social conservative. That's an important distinction for me. Yeah, alot of moggers hold very different views than me. And, I really like alot of them that do, which is why I felt comfortable posting this.
    Permalink posted 12/02/2006
  3. watchbatteries says Well, that would just make you moderate. And I said it wouldn't make you a nutcase, most people are levelheaded. But, intelligent discourse is good. sidebar: ESPN is airing Oregon at Hawaii, the last regular season football game of the year. The game began at midnight, VA time. What the fuck were they thinking? I know it's earlier in HI, but c'mon.
    Permalink posted 12/02/2006
  4. chucky says Moderate? How dare you. The fact that all my socialist family members think I'm a fascist and all my conservative coworkers think I'm bleeding heart is the only thing that makes life worth living. They were thinking that your ass should have TiVo. Haha.
    Permalink posted 12/02/2006
  5. watchbatteries says I don't know how to respond to the first comment. My family is either a)really apathetic towards politics b)the few who are liberal or c)giant fucking christian pro-NRA jingoistic conservative. As far as school goes, my radio friends are moderate or liberal, and i can tell which of my other friends are liberal or conservative. but I don't really care. TiVO? I'm in college, hwo the fuck am I gonna afford tivo? Hell, TiVO just came outh with a new slogan "It's not a TiVo...if it's not TiVO". Then again, I bought a Wii.
    Permalink posted 12/02/2006
  6. chucky says It's easy for me. All of my friends and family are (b) and all of my coworkers are (c). When it comes down to it, the Wii is much more important than TiVo. But, the answer, if you really wanted to know - is to take out a bigger loan and use the extra for the perks of living. (I'm kidding - that's not really the answer. The real answer is suffer. You'll enjoy things more when you are in your 30s if you spend your 20s suffering.) I'm kidding, but yet I'm serious. I think the late hour is doing strange things to my brain.
    Permalink posted 12/02/2006
  7. watchbatteries says well, i get to pay in-state tuition as is. I'll enjoy the small loan my family barely got. Politically...eh.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  8. Anonymous says Yer kinda a "Righty", huh? I do not qualify as such, but how refreshing to meet you! chucky sez: "...I was given a burned copy of System of a Down’s Mezmerize. The first time I heard B.Y.O.B. I thought it was brilliant. Then, I caught the lyrics and took exception..." Since I don't know System of a Down, I was gonna ask, "Which lyrics? Dealing with what?" But you've made your general point clear as an azure sky of deepest summer. I feel more respect for those who have thought their way to their beliefs and don't agree with me, than for those who agree with me but who don't seem to be particularly thoughtful. Ever been harangued by someone (of any world view) who puts forth nothing but half-baked notions and cliches? I come from a family of every kind of Conservative imaginable, and have learned to remain silent about my mainly left-leaning beliefs, unless someone really gets in my face, which doesn't happen much. chucky, I think it's neat that I can now filter what you say here through my knowledge of your robust politics. Just adds another dimension. watchbatteries sez: "...I THINK Johnny Ramone was conservative..." Bet your boots he was. He ate your kind for breakfast and before I even type a period I'll point out that i'm joking, completely. Period.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  9. fairportfan says Johnny was a tad conservartive, yes. There's a pretty strong rumour that they had to use a session guitarist when he refused to play on Bonzo Goes to Bitburg because -Bonzo- Reagan was his Hero. As to some of the political questions in the original post: My own grandmother (first-generation American born Chicago immigrant family) worked at one time in a "sweatshop" doing piecework sewing; while the sweatshop system was Pretty Bad by our standards today, and the ILGWU which rose to oppose/reform it was needed, it wasn't as Universally Evil as hindsight makes it appear. But there were sweatshop operators who were every bit as bad - and even worse - than the popular image portrays them; i don't know how many people nowadays know anything about the "*Triangle Shirtwaist fire*":http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/TriangleFire/, and personal abuses - demands for personal sexual favours and the like - were rampant among even "good" bosses. If the Big Box store's operations in China and other places allow the locals to earn more than they otherwise might, then they're at least neutral on the Good/Bad scale of Karma. The problem is that they tend to saturate the labour market, and their lower expenses can make it difficult for others who might actually be willing to offer better pay or benefits to afford to get a toehold in the same markets. And a lot of the protests of the Big Box stores' Third World "sweatshops" come from the fact that they foster work environments that would not be tolerated longer than it took for an employee to drop a dime and call in health or fire inspectors, or OSHA thestate equivalents. (And, then, WalMart's labour abuses here in the US have not been uncommon...) PETA has a germ of a good idea, but is hopelessly out of touch with Reality, and metaphorically hangs out on street corners with total wackos whose ideas and programs are actually activley pernicious, dangerous and destructive, not-infrequently leading to worse suffering for the animals they're supposedly "helping". Big Box Stores is another issue where neither side of the questiojn is 100% right - i watched the big box concept pretty much drive locally-owned record stores out of business, and then dumbify and blandify the musical "product" conveniently available to the average consumer. Clear *pfui!* Channel is the Big Box Principle applied to radio and concert booking. Very few here would argue that Clear may-it-rot-in-Hell Channel is a really *good* thing, though some might say that 'm over-reacting to it... I suspect the above doesn't make a lot of coherent sense... What i was going to say is that there are very few bands/performers i can think of whose politics (if known) i seriously disagree with whose music i find particularly listenable anyway. (I suspect that, among big-name acts, the Clash [at least in what they *claimed* to believe or represent] come closest, though there are .likely other performers i like - particularly among country acts, i'd suspect - whose idea of an ideal society i wouldn't want to live in.) And, if they record an occasional song i disagree with, i just do't listen to that song. *Current National Terror Alert Level* Terror Alert Level

    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  10. Lester Jonze says I don't get the big hangup. What happened to enjoying just the music? Where is it written you have to get with a certain artists political agenda/beliefs to enjoy their music? It's a bit of a cop out, and self rightous. What's next, bipartisan musical organizations recruiting young blonde blue eyed kids for the cause? please.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  11. Anna says I think I got lost in politics & sides here. I can't say I understand who is what. But what I can say (and have noticed before) about you is that you seem to be loyal to what you believe & to me, talking to someone who stands for what he/she believes on all occassions is more important than talking to someone who has the same beliefs as me.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  12. Lester Jonze says ...why do we have to take up sides?
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  13. Anna says I did not say that we have to take up sides. I don't, especially considering that American sides are foreign to me. I was pointing out that I respect Ashley for the added reason that ever since I've known her, she has been standing firmly for what she believes.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  14. Lester Jonze says self rightous though the beliefs may be.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  15. extraordinarypoems says I like this song.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  16. Nixne Svix says look . a big "realization " for me as an American (who is a self-hating American BTW) was to actually see how others live (the Dutch) and how we look to the outside world. You really cant appreciate the finer points of how ridiculous we are when it come to shopping , cars , gas , drugs , alcohol and sex. now before everyone starts crying foul to me, listen: all countries are screwy in there own way and can learn from others. we as americans are so americentric(because we were taught to be) that even something so mundane as putting mayo on fries would make a redneck want to invade a small country. what im saying is , in our america, the america on tv....we see these images, then we go out and try to be theses things. there in lies the rub , most americans dont try to be anything else. empathy is a bad word. diversity is two kinds of doritos and international is a trip to EPCOT with the kids. now again , im probably not talking about you, just every other american. the first time i left the country i got my ass kicked by culture and all the places i went had running water and english was at least the second language! now. im 6 foot. im athletic. i grew up on the streets of south florida with gangs and drugs and made it out. im a fire fighter EMT and have seen shit that would make the average person shrivel. but boy howdy was i .... A. intimidated by these other country folk B. i was scared to open my mouth, because i really didnt know or like half the things that came out. because what you say does have something to do with where you are. C. i was very happy to be there. as scared and intimidting as it was. i, for the very first time in a long time , felt like i had no control and that sort of chaos is EYE OPENING. it was exhilirtaing at all times and made me feel like a real person. it exposed my faults. my bad politics. my fears. my predjudices. and i had to deal . i was alone most of the time. alone in Dublin. Alone in Amsterdam . Alone in County Claire. Alone in Dusseldorf. Now if you are not a Yank you are probably like, get over kid . its a big world. but thats my point here. Its very hard for americans to step out of the shell we have been cast in, because its so fucking comfy. and its ours. and our land is so big , you can get out there and still not actually leave the states, your whole llife. So what i am saying is, yeah we spend big , drive big, turn blind eyes, can help others but dont , step on little people. but thats the standard and not the way. politics aside, if you want to change, yourself. the country. the world. it starts from within and that begins by getting out. out of your country , out of your skin. look at yourself. look at others. look from beyond and anything can happen. so if you dont like yourself or feel upset because a song or movie or person "pushes your button" and makes you look in the mirror . accept it. look at what you can change. change what you feel is not yours and keep what you own. i sold my truck the day i got back from afar. i dont need it. i ride my bike everywhere and get so much shit for it , but laugh right back in their stupid faces. i know whats right , fuck the american standard. i eat a lot less. we dont need ridiculous amounts of food. too much. quality over quantity. i try and listen and keep my mouth shut. you cant learn with your mouth running. (like right now, i know)my favaorite trick is to stand around in public places and pretend im listening to music on my ipod. its off . i can hear so much more. i learned these tricks in 3 weeks afar. imagine what i could learn in a year. -and before someone lays into me about US hating. dont. i love my country. so much in fact i dont want to just defend it. i want to change it. - and dont say leave if you dont like it. thats a point only made by the stupidest of ignoramous' and i aint going no where. i love my country. i love your country. i love everyone. i cant wait to go to Asia and get my culture kicked there next. greece too, Anna.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  17. Anonymous says Fascinating posts everyone. Thanks for enriching my day. fairportfan sez: "...Triangle Shirtwaist fire..." I've been meaning to ask someone about this, fairportfan: How do you create the kind of embedded link you turned "Triangle Shirtwaist fire" into? Your help would be so appreciated.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  18. Anonymous says "lesterjonze says: I don’t get the big hangup.................." chucky, I admire your original post as much as before. And I will point out that lesterjonze's dissent is very well-argued. Good on ya both.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  19. Anonymous says "extraordinarypoems says: I like this song." A good point, too.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  20. Anonymous says "WAxlcameronRoseJR96 says: look . a big “realization ” for me as an American (who is a self-hating American BTW " You don't get a dotdotdot from me, sorry. Could read no further. I won't belabor this: Why anyone says they hate themselves or their country as if it's a point of pride, like something one would seek approval for, is beyond me. And maybe that person's not you, WAx. I would not know. Like I said my mind clicked off at that point. But not before registering the distinct impression that I'd heard the rest before.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  21. Rawkkiddoh says Some times with music, I have to let how they sound make more of an impression on me than the bands beliefs. Rise Against is awesome, and I have been listening to them for quite some time. When a band decides to make their music a personal statement, its a risky venture. I have gone down the road of dismissing a band because of their lyrics however. One such band was Relient K. Heard a song by them, and was excited about checking them out more. I went to my local record store and started looking for their album. I could not find it anywhere, and when I asked for help I was told to look in the inspirational/religious music. I never even went back. Politics in music is ok with me, but I don't want to hear someone tell me which god I should be praying for.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  22. Nixne Svix says fudge-erm. fedge: you shouldnt comment on something you didnt read. thats exactly the demeanor im talking about. you were my inspiration for that post reply. "Like I said my mind clicked off at that point. But not before registering the distinct impression that I’d heard the rest before." -you seem to have a firm grip on everything. good luck with that.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  23. dead mike says listening to music is as much a statement as writing and composing music is. that's the lesson i've learned here.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  24. lemontwist says Great post. I'm glad you defend your beliefs. :)
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  25. Amy E says Personally, I also tend to pick music that at least somewhat aligns with my beliefs. But I'm a hardcore left leaning feminist and most music I come across expresses at least the left leaning part of those beliefs. That said, I definitely have individual beliefs that don't mesh well with what is usually considered "liberal". For instance sweatshops. I worked for several years in a restaurant where our entire kitchen crew was Tibetan refugees. I completely supported fair trade (and still do) and was very anti-corporation. And once I got into a discussion about it with our main cook. He was telling me that after he and his family were exiled the only work they could get were in sweatshops. Everyone worked including the children. They didn't make a ton of money but they survived. Then, there was some fallout within the company due to bad press on sweatshops and suddenly the shop was shut down. And he was forced to come to America for work, leaving behind a 14 year old son and wife. His son was almost 20 before he saw him again. I don't necessarily agree with sweatshop conditions but they do support people that really need the income. So I support fair trade and free trade. I think it's variety that keeps things interesting and pushes us to exam our belief system. That said, listen to what you want to. I enjoy punk but there is plenty of skinhead punk out there that sounds good but that I wouldn't listen to because I find the message repulsive.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  26. kristiana says I thought your post was well written Cameron. And it came form the heart. And it takes guts to admit to those sorts of feelings amidst your fellow Americans, I bet. Maybe not. Sometimes I am very bewildered by how little some of your fellow countrymen/women know about the rest of the world but I do realize that it is indeed the way your education system works, or so I've been told. I would like to share that I have been guilty of being a total snob to an American girl who had shown up to teach in the same town as myself in Thailand. Yes, she did indeed act like a totally spoiled, unaware "JAP" (she referred to herself as this) from San Fran, who yammered on about George Bush doing the right things (this was in May 2002, so pretty fresh, I realize). Because I disagreed with her unthinking embrace of bad politics and fear-mongering I didn't do much to make her feel welcome in our little community. In fact I was an asshole. I was too stubborn for awhile to see that this was just the way she was used to relating to people, and that not everyone is a rocket scientist when it comes to politics. I'm certainly not myself. But besides, that we should be putting politics and such ambiguous things as "nationalities" aside and getting to know each other as individuals. Eventually we ended up actual friends - very different people, but I learned to tone it down, and she did too. Besides, supposedly we had both come all the way around the world because we wanted to see what life was like with a new set of eyes. We wanted to see how others lived, and chose a place where we would not always have familiar comforts to fall back on. So happy ending. Except I was still kinda pissed when she sewed a Canadian flag on her backpack when she went to India, lol (oh dear, look how tightly I wish to hold on to my precious nationality now!). And what I saw in Thailand - a country that is on its way to realizing that great American dream, trying to catch up as fast as it can. Yes, people are "poor", but many didn't realize they were "poor" until their country was flooded with all the shiny, wonderful things that could make their lives so much more convenient and flashy. What does poor mean to a person who has shelter above their heads and food in their belly? I went to tiny villages, where people had been living as they always had - and it wasn't a bad life. But others came in and told them what they should want/desire. Fellow Buddhists. I realize I am romanticizing here. And who am I to walk in and tell them that they shouldn't want what the rest of the world wants, right? I know I know. I mean, I really dig this computer I'm using to communicate with right now. I dig my ipod. And indoor plumbing - probably one of my favorite inventions. I dig education, which should be a universal right. I'm probably gonna catch some flack for this rambling huh? Look, there's just more than one world view out there, all I'm saying. Anyone who thinks they have it all figured out should learn to be a bit more skeptical. Ah, fuck it. Let's rock, courtesy of Metric. "Handshakes" Say you wanna get in And then you wanna get out When you get the money To buy yourself a castle How will you wear your leisure Zipper back and front On the fence together Weekends in leather Flip to the right Slip back to the left For handshakes at the ranch Small talk at the crossroads Rubbing up to the ladder Sucking on every rung Coming up forever and hanging on That's entertainment When the cameras roll Can you face the pavement For a happy dog and pony show Everybody loves you baby Of course they do Do you miss me I miss you Buy this car to drive to work Drive to work to pay for this car
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  27. Nixne Svix says thanks kristiana. i appreciate objective support and empathetic reasoning. its a lost art here. im not some momma theresa but i am open to the fact that i dont have a clue . which is the way i want it. peace and death metal...
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  28. chucky says Thanks for the feedback everyone. Fedge - I'm not so much a righty as I am somewhere far off in the galaxy somewhere. I am more of a libertarian than anything else. The lyrics that offended me were "why do they always send the poor" - which isn't necessarily true and the military is (usually) a good choice for those who don't have many choices. Another line is "We live in a fascist nation" - which also isn't true. Another is "every city, gripped in oil" - which goes along with the reasoning we went to war for oil. I don't believe we did, I think we went because George Bush is a psychopath, plain and simple. I'd also like to say that I agree with you completely about people. I like people who think things out and have reasons for what they believe, no matter what it is that they believe. I have many friends who have a completely different worldview than I do. fairportfan - as usual you are delightfully enlightening. :) As you make clear, nothing is black and white. Everything has layers that make solutions hard and make reasonable people see things differently. lesterjonze - I don't think I'm being self righteous. I don't think I have all of the answers and I don't dislike or judge people who don't agree with me. My point, which I thought was clear, is that I don't want to support something I don't believe in. If I thought Prussian Blue made good music I still wouldn't buy it because I don't agree with their message. I doubt you would either. Anna - thank you. I agree completely. extraordinarypoems - I do too, now. Cameron - Although I would disagree with some particular points you made, overall I get what you are saying and I agree. I've gotten out of the country, I've gotten outside of my own skin. It's precisely because I've thought about what I believe in that songs can push my buttons. Words and, in the case of the video, images mean things. I can't ignore that and I had to think about it. I will say that I don't want you to get out of the country. :) A country that had no exchange of ideas would stagnate. rawkkiddo - It's just dawning on me that I may have made it sound like I wouldn't buy a cd by someone who held different beliefs. That isn't what I meant. I meant that I couldn't buy a song that expressed views different than my own. I am sure quite a few of the musicians I listen to have different views. So, yes, what you said. I am also with you on the religious music. dead mike - I think so anyways. AJ - thanks. I appreciate that. Amy E - exactly my point. Although, I can't find much music that agrees with my beliefs. Haha. I just try to avoid those that are diametrically opposed. kristiana - very interesting story. The best points you made, to me, were that we need to approach people as individuals and not nationalities and that no one should think they have it all figured out. I certainly don't which is why I was I looked things up and read about them.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  29. BellaVendetta says I was planning to see a certain band next month, then I read an interview where they basically bash the shit out of the US and call people in the midwest uneducated hicks. This band is not from the US by the way. So I will not be going to see them now. Luckily it wasn't a band I cared for a ton to begin with.
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  30. chucky says I hear you BellaVendetta.
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  31. jenipop says This was one of the more reflective threads I have happened upon. Interesting dilemma, one I haven't really had to deal with, save for a tangential aside at work where one person said he used to really like Green Day until they insulted his intelligence with _American Idiot_. I asked what he meant because it was difficult to tell with that open-ended statement. Did he agree with the band's self-styled polemic or was he offended that Green Day would assume all of their fans felt the same way about our political landscape. It was the latter. Further, he called them communists for what they implied about our President. There is no place to go after that, frankly. Discussing politics - even peripherally - in the workplace can be fractious, more so now. I don't appreciate being leapt upon without cause, so I make it my business not to do it to anyone else. As for not listening to an artist or song because of their politics, I sometimes have a similar conflict with hip-hop. I may really like the beats or breaks or burst of horns but the womanizing and money-talk are ridiculous. Many of the artists I listen to are forthrightly political and I appreciate that, especially when they can talk about their stance with some degree of intelligence. John Vanderslice, John Darnielle and Chris Walla immediately spring to mind. Approaching the research as you did is very admirable. If you are interested in opening it up a bit further, I would suggest _Life & Debt_, a great documentary about how our economic policy, including the addition of the World Bank, affects the quality of life for the daily wage earner in Jamaica. It's easy to see how this model is applied elsewhere with little modification to other developing nations: political oversight either entirely absent or simply for sale.
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  32. tybees says I wish I had something intelligent to contribute, but I don't. This has been one of those posts where I have actually read every comment, and it's been incredibly interesting to read. Politics seem to bring out the passion in people, and it's refreshing to hear from people who choose not to be apathetic and whiny. I will add that I agree with the fact that you choose not to listen to music that is not at least somewhat in line with you beliefs. I would never listen to a band who was racist or anti-gay, regardless of how good the music is - as an extreme example, "Blair's post":http://mog.com/SatisfiedMind614/blog_post/29286.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  33. chucky says jenipop - thank you. I will look for that documentary.
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  34. Dale says Wow, great post, Ashley. Thought-provoking and entertaining in one. Wait a sec, a financial auditor's economically conservative? Who'da thunk it? :) I find tremendous strength from those who stand up for what they believe, if it means missing out on a CD, or live concert (Bella, I need names, I don't cotton to people generalizing midwesterners, being one myself), or perhaps more. And if you think I'm feeling this more because we just had a Sunday School lesson about Daniel and the lions' den, then you know me too well. As someone that's not only economically conservative, but socially conservative too, I often listen to music from bands whose views are completely opposed to my own. It's all good, though; I've learned to appreciate and understand their points, and perhaps not be quite so doctrinaire. In a lot of ways, my time on MOG has opened me up, because it's very easy to become insular, when those with whom I associate always have the same beliefs. One of my favorite MOGgers, who shall go nameless here, couldn't have a more diametrically opposed view of life. We get along well though, because we remember to treat each other kindly, and we focus on what we have in common, instead of what's different. And kristiana, I completely feel part of your story, especially about the Thai people being polluted by the "American dream". I spent two years in Haiti as a missionary, and it's impossible to be in that environment and not lose a bit of materialism. Many of the people I met were happy to have shelter, food and clothing, and little else. It's extremely arrogant to say that they were poor, because they had what they needed. It's a simple life, sure, but very nice in some ways. Of course, it's easy to say that under the blurry lens of memory, and as I sit in front of one of three computers in our nice house.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  35. chucky says hey tybees. I'm glad you popped in. You said you didn't have anything intelligent to contribute and then you contributed something intelligent. :) Love that. Prussian Blue is a perfect example and I used it earlier to try and explain my point to lesterjonze. I think it's perfectly reasonable to not listen to something that goes against what you believe in. The content of the music you listen to can say alot about who you are as a person.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  36. chucky says Thanks Dale. I know it's totally amazing that an auditor would be a economic conservative right? Haha. I hear what you are saying too, about other moggers. I love Swoz and Blair, and I believe they are both far to the left of me. Swoz, in particular, has a great passion for what he believes in and I love that about him. I am also open to the idea of learning new things. I believe what I believe for good reasons, but I am willing to be proven wrong.
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  37. Dale says Uh-oh. Best clean out Sir Mix-A-Lot then, huh?
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  38. chucky says Haha. I thought about deleting that sentence as Paris Hilton flitted through my head, but then just decided to add the "can" as in it can say alot but, not necessarily. Hedging there. :)
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  39. blueone51 says Outstanding thread and nice to see how music intersects with the “real world” for people. I think there has always been a left-leaning orientation to rock/folk/indie etc music – a desire to be in opposition to those perceived as being in power. If you’re an economic conservative/social progressive it’s tough to find any band carrying the flag for you. I’m still waiting for a rousing anthem to fiscal responsibility with a chorus supporting same-sex marriage. btw Kristiana, having spent time in SE Asia I found all the wonderful, shiny objects there where made in Japan and increasingly in China. That’s not to say the influence of a US consumerist culture hasn’t contributed to changes there but other countries are driving things much faster now.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  40. Mmccormick88 says As a Pro-Life Libertarian, I feel I'm something of rare bird politically. A lot of the bands I listen to don't neceessarily rail against anything in particular, but more at conformity in general. But what I notice is that these bands often are of a leftist political persuasion. I can see where this is coming from in terms of social issues, but I don't understand why bands who regularily denounce control and conformity would buy into (no pun intended) a n economic system in which the state commands labor, distributes wealth, and demands submission of the individual to the state's own interests. Then again, this whole image of these bands being unequivocally leftist very well may be journalistic mythmaking. I remember reading in the liner notes to Gang of Four's Entertainment! drummer Hugo Burnham talking about how they never considered themselves Marxist, as is frequently asserted, but rather how they just considered themselves against the "herd mentality," in his words. By the way, I noticed someone mentioned Johnny Ramone. As Long as we're on conservative rock stars here, I'd like to mention that the Sex Pistols and Slayer both have anti-abortion songs, "Bodies" and "Silent Scream" respectively, although both of those groups tend to play with irony alot, so it's open to interpretation. I also recall hearing about Joy Division frontman Ian Curtis being somewhat right-of-center.
    Permalink posted 12/03/2006
  41. chucky says blueone51 - if you ever find that song, let me know about it. It sounds right up my alley. :) mmccormick88 - I never understood that either. I wish you and blueone51 had shown up earlier in this thread.
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  42. kristiana says I wasn't blaming the US, Blueone, I was using the term "American dream" as it is common vernacular, that's all. But of course US consumerist culture does have an influence - while many of the products were from Asian countries, there were just as many billboards for American companies. And North American culture was being eaten up in the form of crappy movies and crappier pop stars. One day I had to go to a sillyass seminar some of the Thai teachers had organized - in a way it was just to gloat about how superior their culture was to "ours". But anyways, one of the Thai teachers had summed up Western culture with "fast food and free sex". I laughed my ass off. I mean - sex is never really free, is it? lol
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  43. gradys kitchen says From a political standpoint I've never aligned myself too closely with either major US party adpoting instead a humanist approach {to borrow from Wikipedia: Humanism features an optimistic attitude about the capacity of people, but it does not involve believing that human nature is purely good or that each and every person is capable of living up to the humanist ideals of rationality and morality. If anything, there is the recognition that living up to one's potential is hard work and requires the help of others. The ultimate goal is human flourishing; making life better for all humans. Even among Humanists who do believe in some sort of an afterlife, the focus is on doing good and living well in the here and now, and leaving the world better for those who come after, not on suffering through life to be rewarded afterwards.}. Where this has helped in my particular slice of life, is that I do not get too hung up on classifications or tagging of beliefs. The question I ask as in chucky's free trade internal debate is how does this positively impact all parties involved? Sometimes the answer is not so black and white but it is an excellent stepping stone to determining some sort of behavior eg voting. As for music purchases its best to go with your gut unless a song is spewing unabashed hatred.
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  44. chucky says gradys kitchen - That's the rub there. Free trade, in a vacuum, would lead to the fairest outcome for all parties involved. You are free to trade or not to, if the terms are not agreeable. So, theoretically, it is the best possible system. I believe in reality, it is going to be the best system 99.9% of the time. But, in a global economy with countries that are at different levels of economic development I can see the potential for abuse. Which is why, I assume, the idea of fair trade came about. And, I am sure, strong proponents of fair trade would see it as the most equitable solution. But, I see the (stronge) potential for situations like the one described by Amy E above. It is a very nice thought to support something that you think is going to get people decent working conditions and a fair wage. It's not so nice when your ideals keep them from eating because they can't get a job due to your well meaning interference. That's part of my thoughts that deal with the human aspect of the situation that you were talking about. I have other thoughts swirling in my head about it too from a purely political/economic standpoint that don't consider the human element at all.
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  45. Nixne Svix says once again , great post chuck. just wanted to put out there that i didnt mean to be nasty if i came across that way , i just get sarcastic too much. i mean well and good for all of course. i just wanted to say also. what about the actual meaning of the words ( to the artist) and the interpretation a listener applies? straight forward hate filled songs are one thing . but the line...." i want to set you and the world on fire"...could be translated to a host of meanings. just thought about that as i read this....
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  46. chucky says Thanks. With the exception of one commenter, I didn't feel that anybody was being nasty to me. This is passionate stuff. Heh. I would have been really disturbed if people read it and thought "eh, who give a fuck." Funny you bring that up, because the song that started this ball rollling (Rise Against - Prayer of the Refugee) disconnected from the video and the title, could have a few interprations if you looked at some of the lyrics as hyperbole or a metaphor or something. If I had heard it on the radio instead of seeing the video this post wouldn't have happened. But, once I'm conscious of what the artist is trying to say, I find it harder to put my own spin on it. I'm weird.
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  47. Rawkkiddoh says Chucky, I didnt mean to make it seem like I didn't think you would buy an album because of their beliefs. I know oh too well how annoying it can be to listen to a musical artist go on an on for a cause that you wonder if they really believe in.
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  48. chucky says Ah. Your comment just triggered the thought that I hadn't expressed myself clearly enough. Words aren't my forte. I just wanted to be sure I was saying what I meant. No worries. I didn't take what you said badly in any case. :)
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  49. Nixne Svix says a good example is the song by ABBA. Fernando a song of war ? who knew? Add Audio to Default Playlist Fernando Can you hear the drums Fernando? I remember long ago another starry night like this in the firelight Fernando you were humming to yourself and softly strumming your guitar I could hear the distant drums and sounds of bugle calls were coming from afar They were closer now Fernando every hour, every minute seemed to last eternally I was so afraid Fernando we were young and full of life and none of us prepared to die and I’m not ashamed to say the roar of guns and cannons almost made me cry There was something in the air that night the stars were bright, Fernando they were shining there for you and me for liberty, Fernando though we never thought that we could lose there’s no regret if I had to do the same again I would my friend, Fernando Now we’re old and grey Fernando since many years I haven’t seen a rifle in your hand can you hear the drums Fernando? Do you still recall the fateful night we crossed the Rio Grande? I can see it in your eyes how proud you were to fight for freedom in this land There was something in the air that night the stars were bright, Fernando they were shining there for you and me for liberty, Fernando though we never thought that we could lose there’s no regret if I had to do the same again I would my friend, Fernando © Copyright 1975 for the world by Universal/Union Songs AB, Stockholm, Sweden. All rights reserved
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  50. Sweetbro says I was raised to believe that you are not supposed to talk politics, sex or religion in mixed company. Of course, I don't think that anymore, and I am always interested to hear what people think about different issues, especially important socio-political issues. I just wanted to say that I especially respect that you researched the issue rather than writing it off. Though you don't agree with RA all the way, the fact that you took the time to educate yourself about the "other" side shows intelligence, thoughtfulness (is that even a word?), and a conscientousness (again, a word?) that 90% of people don't have.
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  51. chucky says Hey, I appreciate that. And, yeah, those are words, just don't ask me how to spell them because I can't spell for shit. :)
    Permalink posted 12/04/2006
  52. Amy E says haha, i love that you used the Prussian Blue example. I thought of them first before referencing skinhead punk. But, honestly, they scare me way more than any skinheads I've ever met (which always seemed to be muscular white guys well over six feet tall). I think it's that they look like my little sister (innocous) and spew hate. creepy.
    Permalink posted 12/05/2006
  53. chucky says Yeah - the skinheads (and luckily I've never met one) are hateful and stupid. But, those kids seem like pure evil. They have to be, to be so calm and even happy about the shit they say.
    Permalink posted 12/05/2006

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