I had an interesting conversation with my boy while driving home in the car…
There is a whole convoluted backstory about how we got to the conversation, I just don’t have the patience or energy to get into that much detail, nor do you, I suspect.
To sum it all up, the conversation was about SWEARING…Cuss words & foul language.
Stewart, my husband, and I both understand that kids swear. Part of the growth of teens and pre-teens, is experimenting with the power of words thru swearing. We have always felt it naïve to expect him never to swear…we have tried to teach him to be appropriate. We have always said to Stan “We know that you swear with your friends, but there are appropriate and inappropriate times to swear. You have to learn to read the situation you are in and make the right decision about swearing.” Just a note here…when he is not around…both my husband and I can, and do, swear. But we control it, and it RARELY slips out…Okay there was that one time Stew said the “F” word in front of Stan, but he had almost stepped on a Rattlesnake…you would’ve done the same thing.
In the car Stan and I were discussing something Stewart had said.
Me: “Well, Dad and I swear with each other.”
Stan: (shocked) “You and Dad swear?”
M: “Sure, I mean, you swear with your friends, don’t you?”
S: “Well yeah, but if you guys swear with each other, and if I swear with my friends, how come we don’t swear around the house, with each other?”
M: “Because me and dad are friends, but we are not your friend…we are your parents.”
S: “Oh.”
M: “If we used swear words around the house, there would be no boundaries anymore…lines would become blurred. The last thing I would want is for you to feel that you can use swear words as common language. It’s one thing for you to exclaim the “S” word when you stub your toe or cut your finger with a knife, it’s another if it becomes part of how we communicate with each other.”
S: “Oh, okay.”
You would think we were having “The Talk” (for the parents with small children or those without children…”The Talk” is about S.E.X.)
I guess I bring this up because it was an interesting slice of life for me. I guess I am also curious about people’s views about swearing, swearing and kids, kids who swear.
One final thought though. I really struggle with those people who are opposed to swearing, but use “modified” words in place of the actual swear words. Isn’t it really the same as swearing when they use this substitution method? They are using a word for emphasis, while not using THE word, but we really all know the word they mean. Granted, it is probably more appropriate to say the modified word, but to me it calls attention to the fact that they wanted to swear, while not actually swearing.
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My mom swore up a storm when I was young, but I still never thought it was OK. As a teen and college cat I rarely swore. Ever since I've been a driver in major metro areas as a grown up, my swearing has increased exponentially.
My six year old has a few choice words, but he doesn't let them out much.
I think you are doing the right thing by not making too much of a big deal about swearing and allowing your kids to find the balance they need to have as they grow up. Not all rules can be hard and fast and allowing them to use their judgment is a good thing.
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Granted, it is probably more appropriate to say the modified word, but to me it calls attention to the fact that they wanted to swear, while not actually swearing. Such restraint is admirable, no? Isn't this the exact lesson you wish to teach? As I see it, there are several issues in play here, and you have touched on two very important ones. A) The appropriateness, (setting, company, the sensibilities of others, etc etc etc.) B) The exactitude of communications. I agree with you concerning explosions of euphemisms polluting our language (and thoughts) C) The power of words. We use words as talismans, we vest them with power and meaning. We need a certain arsenal of "nukes" that truly can relieve inner tensions somewhat, and to illustrate to others the depths of our feeling at the moment. D) The power of a well-constructed vocabulary. The cusswords that will get you in trouble in the classroom can be circumvented and a teacher cut down to size without losing a civil, polite air. And in the end that can be infinitely more satisfying.
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I will admit to occasionally swearing like a truckdriver, even around the kids. But it is always for dramatic emphasis and REALLY gets their attention, so it must not be very often. My 14 year old is like your Stan...he is flexing his new manliness with language and has to be reigned in occasionally. I have had the same talk with him about appropriate times to use the language and when it's not really a good idea...like when his grandparents are visiting (I could have killed the kid).
I have issues with substitute swear words also, although I understand why I use them in mixed company. When a person who normally would say "sh!t" says "shoot" (like what I did right there, for instance) the intention is the same, but a concession is made for others that may be offended and I get that. But when someone who doesn't use that language does the same thing, isn't the intention the same? I had a friend who used to use "flip" in place of that other F word and I had this same conversation with him, but was never convinced that flip was much better...it was all about what was intended to me. Not that I cared; he could have said whatever he wanted IMO, but I just didn't understand how it was all that different
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Dm - I think what I was trying to convey is the substitution word carries just as much weight...and, therefore, should not be taken as a "better" alternative to swearing. Mostly to highlight the hypocrisies of the argument of those that say "I don't swear." when in fact, the substitution word is, in effect swearing. And to your letter D...would that I could cut down my foe with my verbal barb...but sometimes, when I am on my bike, and someone cuts me off, only the middle finger can do.
Cody - Interesting, your evolution of swearing.
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Amber - That's what I mean about the substitution method...but better said by you.
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When my son does swear, my wife usually asks him, "What does that mean?" Another way to get him thinking of an alternative. I find swearing acceptable under deadmans point C. The nuclear verbal option.
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I've never thought about curse words from a parental l point of view before. So thank you providing with excellent food of thought...
Generally speaking, I don't believe there's no such a thing as foul language. It's got to do with taboos and totems of a given society. Why fuck or shit should be deemed more dangerous to the cohesion of families and other social institutions than copulate or faeces is beyond me. Why pussy should be proscribed before the watershed and not vulva is also a mystery.
Should we prevent children from reading "The Canterbury Tales" because it's filled with "foul language?" As someone who cherishes all nuances of the idiom, I think it is best to "desecrate" the taboo of foul language as you did with your son.
Regarding people using substitutes, I'll just quote Dorothy Parker when she met Norman Mailer who'd used the euphemism "fug" in "The Naked and the Dead:" "So you're the man who can't spell fuck?"
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Well Goddamn...
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Cody - Yes...sometimes we need to pull out the nuclear option...but it should mostly be there as a deterrent.
Bart - Excellent quote and excellent point...about the taboos...one man's trash is another man's treasure. So who is to say what foul language is?
Lester - Gosh darn it...you mean.
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Growing up in a baptist up bringing my sis & I weren't allowed to swear. Once I left all that behind I've had fun swearing up a storm, heh. But when I'm around my family I keep it reigned in & they know I do & have told me they appreciate it. So yea, appropriate swearing is a must! So glad I don't have kids though . . . .
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Michael...you have a fabulous point there, and the USA is way tightly wrapped when it comes to political correctness...too tightly wrapped IMO. So one man's taboo is another's term of endearment. You also skated next to the concept of censorship. I don't prevent my kids from listening to (or reading) works that contain so-called foul language. My daughter loves Green Day and can play Boulevard of Broken Dreams on her guitar; F-word and all. Kitty by the Presidents of the USA, Pictures of Success by Rilo Kiley...all great songs with "bad" words. WhatEVER... :)
BTW, I ADORE Dorothy Parker. I just knew you were cool beyond cool. :)
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Amber...very good point...I never stop Stan from hearing swear words in songs...Green Day's American Idiot and a couple from Rilo definitely spring to mind...it is the context of things...but then Hip Hop with Bitches & Hos references, I do try to steer him from. Am I being hypocritical there? I think the difference, that I justify to my self, it that there is using swearing as modifiers vs. swearing as denigration. Or maybe I am just hypocritical...
Stan has also seen all of the Flight of the Conchords episodes...including the posted video. I know that he likes them...because, like Monty Python, there is an element of dancing to close to the edge...well what you can consider close to the edge for an 11 year old boy.
Aug - Appropriateness is key...I bet your family does appreciate it...nice that they tell you so.
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hypocritical or not, I'm with you Annie. Use of language in art as emphasis is ok in my parenting plan, but not to demean. For the record, I don't find anything hypocritical in that in the least.
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I can definitely see a difference between swearing in one of Rilo Kiley's songs versus, say, Lil Wayne's "Aint That a Bitch." One is degrading and one is just expressing the power or the emotion that the artist is feeling.
My parents always taught me that cussing is perfectly okay when your emotion fits the word, but if you say it all the time it loses its power and you end up sounding trashy and uneducated... unable to come up with different word.
But yeah, the U.S. is wayyy to uptight about political correctness...
Good post!
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"cussing is perfectly okay when your emotion fits the word, but if you say it all the time it loses its power and you end up sounding trashy and uneducated..."
I think that's the ideal way to go about this situation. Good for your folks!
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Words are just words. You can use them to caress, you can use them to hurt {my experience so far tells me that it's the non-swear words that cause a big damage}. Just like a knife is a knife, you can use it to spread marmalade on bread, and you can use it to stab. So, it's not the word themselves, it's how you use them.
Now, when you {not you you, people in general} start to prohibit words, you overpower them and add the temptation factor, which has a great appeal on children {and many adults, actually, hehe}.
I was allowed to swear as a child, so now that I'm all grown up (cough cough), I don't really swear, unless I intentionally want to sound vulgar (a gal has her reasons); I got it out of my system. Along with this freedom, I was taught propriety and respect. I wouldn't call my mother a "bitch", but when I was angry about something and desired to express anger, I used swear words.
Substitute words sound idiotic to me, as to BBBBBBEEEEEEEEEPPPPSSSS; we all know what they are replacing, and they actually draw more attention to the swear words, even if we don't get to hear them.
Plus, kids will swear. Instead of swimming (by which I mean "drowning") in ignorance, it's better for you to know.
Sounds like you are raising your children fine, Annie. If children are taught about respect and social boundaries in general, and receive a proper education (and I don't mean only math, I mean education and culture), you don't have to worry about how they will use their vocabulary; it will come out naturally. So, you're on the right track, as far as I'm concerned.
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Apologies, my editing skills are terrible. I meant to say: "I don't there's such a thing as foul language." (The double negation didn't make any sense.)
Speaking of censorship, you do realise that by spelling out the curse word for mating I have made your post unfit for some people and quite possibly blocked by programs such as Net Nanny? -- While I agree with "appropriateness" (though the term may be a bit tendentious), I'm fundamentally opposed to all forms of censorship. (Our own intelligence should be the only censor)
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man, dont they teach this in school yet...
im glad you brought this up, for i have always had a big issue on the subject. i had a bad mouth when i was in my younger and more vulnerable years (by that i mean 4th grade to 7th). but something happened to me in mid-middle school that changed me. i suddenly snapped out of it and decided to stop saying the 's' and 'f' word. havent muttered one of them out since then. and ive tried. one day i was really frustrated and my father told me to just stick my head in a pillow and curse the world out. i tried, and failed. couldnt do it because it had been so long. what can i say, when i commit i commit. but here is the thing, i personally have no problem with other people using them around me. i honestly dont understand how a word can be considered 'bad.' a word is a word. words represent things. things are beautiful. but i know society has past the point of no return where four letter words are soapy mouth worthy. today, i just use other words that have been deemed more acceptable. no one can yell at me if i scream out "BUTTERNUTS" or "SON OF A Bee-STING" they usually just laugh and thats what im all about.
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Son of a bee-sting! I like that one. :)
I know what Sam means about not being able to spit out some words...Racial slurs and a certain c-word just can't be said without my pulse raising and a feeling of shame coming over me, even if I'm repeating what someone else said.
Annie...this was a very interesting post. Thanks
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Wow, you want a teachers perspective on this. Well too bad, here it goes. I do not think I could go through life with out being able to swear. Sometimes there is no other word that can emphasize how you are feeling, other than a well placed fuck. I think you hit it right on the head when you said, "There are right times to swear, and wrong times." I grew up, and went through the whole swearing phase like anyother child. I only knew two things when it came to swearing, never do it at school and never do it in front of your parents. Even to this day I still have a tough time swearing in front of my mother, I guess it is kind of a respect thing when it comes to that. I wish more kids had these talks with their parents, because being a school teacher you see a whole different idea when it comes to swearing. This year I had a student tell me I was S.O.L. when I asked for his homework. My response to that was, "Marcus you should not be using acronyms that you have no idea what they mean " After explaining what an acronym was, he came back with, "Oh I know and thats what I meant, you are shit out of luck" When I told his mother this over the phone about 1 minute later she started laughing because she thought it was funny. Like I have said, there is a right and wrong place for swearing in every day life. If I had over heard Marcus use this while talking to his friends it would not have been a big deal to me. The fact that he used it towards me is what made the difference in my books.
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I don't think I ever swore or heard a swear word until I stepped on the school bus. Then it was all over. Your sentiments are remarkably close to a piece my wife and I heard on NPR talking about how kids speech is shaped more by their peers then their parents.
I agree with Kiddo, right place, right time. Never in school to a teach. There should still be that respect (I say should, but I know it's slipping).
I am amazed at my recent ability to switch a "Fuck!" with a "phooee!", since my son has begun to talk, and parrot us. A few times I've even been able to switch a word heard else wear and change it to what I want him to have heard (Asshole some how became Crackers!). But that's just because I really hate seeing little kids curse, and probably think some how it will reflect poorly on me.
I just want my son and daughter to be have a little mystery in their lives. For me, right now, it's more of the negative connotations of it, over anything else. I see enough kids being verbally abused by their parents at the library, and I just don't want them to see that as an acceptable way to deal with people.
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I hear you on that aspect, I have never sworn in front of my class and never intend on doing so. Same will be said for how I talk in front of my son, right place at the right time is how I view it as you know. Even when I am listening to music now, I make sure it is edited for content around him. When he finally learns the joy of swearing, well it is going to be something he has to do on his own. I do not want him to think that he can use swear words however he likes because in all reality its not how it works in the real world. Like you said though, the lack of respect towards teachers is slipping, but it is the parents who should be able to explain to their children what they should and should not be saying on a regular basis. Teachers get creative when it comes to not swearing in front of their students, and needless to say I might be using phooee this upcoming school year!
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My position on profanity is well-known but I will reiterate for your benefit. It's my position that there is nothing to gain by using a profane word, that there are so many other words available to express shock, outrage and anger that don't carry the emotional payload. I used to swear a blue streak pre-conversion, and it took some time to root the use of those words from my vocabulary. Now, it's probably been at least 10 years since I've swore. I'm also the dork that edits those words out of songs, although I've fallen out of the habit, and just got called out last week by Jordan (my 11-year-old) because he heard a couple of bad words. And don't even get me started on substitute swear words. They're every bit as bad as the actual word. "Flip" and "fetch" get a lot of play among younger LDS kids, and it drives me crazy. Oh, and btw, Thanks to Anna for holding me to my own high standards by calling me out for using ... the word with the letters in "carp" and sound like "frap". I used to use that word, but stopped because she expected me to not use it. And finally, a sweet Coachella memory ... "$#%@#^ ... SORRY DALE!"
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"[T]here are appropriate and inappropriate times to swear. You have to learn to read the situation you are in and make the right decision about swearing.” Agree 100% with this. You don't want to upset people unnecessarily. We've said something similar to Jill's young 'un, who strangely never, ever swears in front of us. Strange because it would be very appropriate in front of us two, as J and I have a juvenile streak and love using swear words to make each other laugh. To us, they're only words and all the funnier because of the offense they would cause in the wrong setting. Having said that, in my script writing I tend to avoid them because, to paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, "they're a shortcut to humor and where's the fun in that".
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Swearing is kind of like a dick joke, it's a easy way to get a cheap laugh (or I guess in the case of cursing, it's a cheap way to make a point).
I did want to ad though, that often we don't realize how kids may like seeming profane songs, but be happy to sing them because they are catchy, and not profane. I always resort back to being in 1st grade and singing "Like a Virgin" and not having a clue what I was saying.
A similar instance occurs with my son and The Police song "Dee Doo Doo Doo Dee Da Da Da" [forgive my laziness in looking up the correct spelling or complete title] where I change the word "Rape" to "Break". He just loves singing the chorus, and he probably wont realize there's other lyrics for a long time, but on the off chance he repeats it, I really don't need my son toddling around singing the word rape. And granted it's not a curse word, but not one that needs to be used as flippantly as it is in that song.
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Thanks all for commenting...phew...
Sordid - Way to uptight...PC about more then just swear words...add to the list race, class, nudity...what else.
Dach - Tally ho!
Amber - I think Stan just figured out what the "C" word is. I haven't heard him say it, but I haven't heard him ask "What's the "C" word?". We do watch British movies, and they say it...It's just used differently over there.
Anna - Thanks, and excellent point about the butter knife...Do you have sporks (spoon fork) in Greece? I think they make a fine weapon too.
Sam - "they usually just laugh and thats what im all about."...I figured as much.
Bart - What about censorship for children and at what age do you draw the line with kids? I think this query was less about the censorship of adults.
Kev - I would be that parent that laughed too. In my circumstance, I participate so much at my son's school, PTA & SSC , that I feel like the teachers are more peers to me...so I could see the humor in the situation, but then I would quickly follow up with, "How bad do you want me to punish him for that remark?"...and he would be, seriously.
CBW - They are only kids once, and I have sheltered Stan too...he doesn't need to see violent or scary movies either, until he is ready. About the Police song...didn't even know that that word was in the chorus. Hummm.
Dale - Interesting about the LDS kids...seems like you have the same complaint I do about the "substitution" words. Who are they trying to fool? I do make it a point of not swearing online though...at least I try to. I might have done it a couple of times.
Flux - You might appreciate that we have a subscription to Viz...it comes every month, and my husband and I fight over who gets to read it first...so at our house, profanity and childish humor are celebrated. But we hide them...yes we do. The last thing I would want is for Stan to stumble upon...Oh Lordy, It's The Fat Slags.
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Not often, but yes, I'm sure it's around. You're scaring me a bit ;)
Dale, hehehehe count on the language-libertine to be of language-strictness :)
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yeah, we talk about this in philosophy all the time....correction, my professor talks about this in philosophy all the time.
bascially, my prof has two nieces and he is always telling us about them and their shenanigans. he himself swears a lot but he always tells them not to swear, as per their parents request. however, he also engages them in conversation regarding swearing. he'll ask them, for example, what has more emotive force: "bull crap" or "horseshit". something like that anyway. and his nine-year-old niece always says the latter has more emotive force. for him, anyway, this is what he uses to justify his cussing. personally, i've never been one to swear and i don't find use of it in my everyday life. i think that swearing is way way overused to the point where it is used as filler such as "um" and "uh" once were. i'm not really sure why that is, but i find that it literally trashes up language (in a similar way that uh and um do but to a greater extent) and takes the beauty out of language in some respect. at least that is what i think of it.
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Thanks Ardy...good perspective there.
That's funny, your professor talks all the time.
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Annie, yep, be careful, you'd warp your boy forever! I was just flicking through the Christmas Annual over the w/e (I'd hid it in a wardrobe...it's my porn.). I find the letters particularly amusing
"'Alton Towers - Where the magic never ends', or so the commercial says. Imagine my disappointment when it closed at 7.30."
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Flux - Love the letters section...one of my altime favorites.
"Never invite a chimp to a tea party...He will only drink the tea right out of spout, eat the cherry of the bun and smash the rest. I know because I saw it happen one time in Leeds. Or I had a dream about it. I can't remember which
Signed,
Mark Mango Bingo"
Yes...we absolutely love VIZ.
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Heh-heh. That's a good one. And no swear words required...