MOG

That episode is classic. I've actually thought about doing a post on white artists who can get away with using THE word. Top 3 are Bob Dylan "Hurricane", Elvis Costello "Olivers Army", and Patty Smith "Rock n' Roll Nigger". Now it's time for me to do some back peddling in true liberal/white guilt fashion and explain that they can use it because of the context in which it was used in each song. Any thoughts from anyone on that, am I wrong? I mean I only feel comfortable using it when talking about a title or to quote someone.

Yeah, MOG's been a bitch today.

As far as Matt and Trey...yeah, they get away with heinous shit! I think it's great. But, actually, I think this episode had an important message. It was cool the way Stan's dad had to experience racism for himself. And, hey, at least he apologized.

I totally agree that it's all about the context. To me, any word is just a series of sounds. What's more important is the meaning behind it.

Here's another post for a another time, but I'm a big fan of the book "Bomb The Suburbs" by William "Upski" Wimsatt. He has an essay called "We Use Words like Macadocious" in which he interviewed kids in middle america during the "Yo! MTV" boom of hip hop, and points out the inherent double standards of white people who like "black music" and how they could be hugely influenced by the music, yet still racist too. Upski is a white graffiti kid from chicago heavily steeped in hip hop culture, so it provides a kind of "from the front lines" style of reporting, from a time when hip hop didn't rule the charts, but affected everyone.The whole book is brilliant and if I had tons of money I'd carry copies in my glove compartment and pass it out to all the frontin' white boys I met like I was a Jehovah's Witness.

So, his point is that a lot of white hip-hoppers are at the same time racist against blacks?

MOG ate up my comment. That doesn't say much about its content, does it.

My comment's content, that is.

Just the fact that you're allowed to make comments doesn't say much about MOG's content. ;)

Nagger!

Oh, no no no. Here's a link to the essay. He was more saying (remember this was written in 1994) that many white kids were living the highly stylized imitation of predominantly black artists what they saw on TV, sometimes without actually knowing many (or any) black people, so their whole behavior was influenced, but their attitudes were not always, and some of them were still using THE word in the derogatory/demeaning sense, not in the proper context. My apologies, I perhaps was referencing the essay too much with out elaborating. Unfortunately, I still know a few people who want to be "gangsta's", love hip hop, are white, but are still racist. These are the people I would give the book too, just to kind of say "look at yourself, who are you fooling?"

I laughed twice. This was funny.

I am so sick of the racism issues. I like everybody......even people from Greece. Well............basically I don't like anybody.........but that has nothing to do with race.

A wise man (Bill Hicks perhaps?) said "Racism is dumb, it's so much easier to hate people on an individual basis."

I know the old saying..........make love not war. I just have so much trouble finding people wanting to make love. Getting naked seems to be such a big deal.

Actually, Henry, I'm noticing the same thing since I've been back in America. I just don't know what it is about women here, but they're definitely not getting naked often enough for me. Man, I've just been been on a string of meeting lame broads. I need to go back to Europe, where the women are slutty. :)

[running and ducking behind my couch]

Troy and Henry are both grounded.

http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article2631521.ece

Nagger please. OH MY GOD. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Freakin funny dude. I'm with you. I don't use the word either but I do think it's all context. My wife and I were talking about this at lunch today. Dude seriously I about peed over that video. South Park rules.

Contra: I'm kinda on the fence about the article. I guess in '94 there were a lot more whites who were just posing, but nowadays there are plenty of white kids who know more about hip-hop and are more involved in hip-hop than I am. You can definitely tell this essay was from the pre-Eminem era. :)

Anna: You know I meant "slutty" in the best possible sense of the word, baby. CONTEXT! Haven't you been paying attention to the thread? :D

Neill: Do you actually watch the show? I don't really know how to feel about the comments, being that I didn't actually witness the exchange. But, it seems as if the people involved handled it well. I mean, they checked her, found out exactly where she was coming from, and that was that.

I mean, on some level, I believe white people get off on being able to say "nigger" in front of black people. My cousin used to have a white friend who was "cool", and he threw it around like it was nothing. I had to tell him to catch it before it flew out of his mouth when he was around me. There was just a certain level of "look what I can get away with" in his demeanor.

But, at the same time, I used to be married to a white German chick. And Friday nights were the nights I hung out with the boys. Since I was about 20, boys' night out was always called "nigga night." Like, "Hey, we should call up Mike and Von and have a nigga night this weekend." So, when I was with my wife, it was the same thing. Well, one weekend a friend is visiting from out of town, and I'm telling her that I'm just gonna hang out with the boys that night, but that I would take her out the following night. And she says, "I know, I know. Nigga night." And I thought nothing of it. It didn't even register with me. And years later, my friend brought it up. I didn't even remember it happening, but I think it kinda ruffled his feathers. But, I take the blame for that one. She was just repeating what she had heard me say a million times.

So...

Chris Rock's take on niggas is good too. There's so much truth in this one.

That video is funny too. He causes me to make great guffaws.

http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article2631521.ece And this...."... and some of them were still using THE word in the derogatory/demeaning sense, not in the proper context". without any sense of irony!!! Once again we have met the enemy and he is us. We used to laugh at Zappa...."Who Are The Brain Police"? Who the flock decides what the "proper context" is? Is it general consensus? Is it browbeating the meek? Way too many young black men feel they have the right, if not the obligation to "beast down" anyone who "disrespects him" in such a way. I find racism to be one of the most repulsive and repugnant character traits possible. I believe it shows a shallow ignorance and a stunted emotional growth. I do not choose to associate with such people. I have the right to express my displeasure and disgust when racism rears it's ugly head. I have no right to punish someone for saying the wrong thing. Nor does anyone else. Especialy not THE STATE.

Eh. I remember my husband showing me this clip and - do you know - I said frustratedly (because I wanted to go out for a cigarette and I didn't understand why he was holding me up) - Nagger! I didn't see it coming until the guy said it. This is partly because I'm naive and partly because I'm retarded. I laughed but, ultimately, I don't like the word. And, I don't mean I don't like it only when white people say it - I just don't like it. And I think it's use contributes to a double standard that causes misunderstandings and continued unease between black and white people. I know white kids want to use the word they hear being thrown around so carelessly and I can't imagine how black people wouldn't be reminded of a painful past every time they used the word themselves. It's ugly. Find a new word I say.

Chucky, as soon as a new word is picked, someone somewhere will take offense.

This is probably true. It's the curse of being human. But, I can't think of a more polarizing word at the moment.

The word Nigger has no meaning for me.

that south park episode was one for the ages. Needless to say it is not a word I encorporate into my vocabulary

Speaking of polarizing words my wife and I were talking about fag today and how only gay people can say it but it's pretty rare that you can call a gay person a fag. What's the word that makes straight white people cringe?

Unless you are a racist or a homophobe, the words Nigger and Faggot have no contextual existence. They exist and have meaning only to those who feel an emotional reaction to their utterance.

breeder.

That was easy - I hate being called a breeder. Mostly because I refuse to.

dare I say crotch fruit, the very name I call my son now>? Thanks Ash

hahaha...I'm so ticked about that. When I was so open with my crotch fruit comments I had no idea you had a baby. Not fair! I've tried to censor myself since I pissed off a pregnant woman who found it offensive that I said I didn't like children in her pregnant presence. I decided then that all breeders (ha!) are crazy and I should humor them. :P

Oh, man, I have a friend who HATES when I use the word fag. She's not gay, but she's one of those types who always has a cause and is always involved in some protest, or whatever. So, one of her causes is being an "advocate" and so on and so forth. Anyway, yeah "fag" burns her up. On the flip-side, a gay friend of mine is a promoter in Frankfurt. One night at one of his parties, the DJ spun a song (can't remember the tune) where the rapper has a line that goes "Y'all faggots like Bernie Mac in life." I had heard it a million times and never paid attention to that line until I'm at this party (which was predominately gay). He happened to be sitting next to me at the time, and I turned and asked if it bothered him that the DJ played that particular song. He said he hadn't noticed the line, and even if he had it wouldn't have bothered him. Apparently concessions are made for music, even when the lyric in question is clearly offensive.

deadman: I too am disgusted by racism, but I don't believe every use of the word "nigger" is racist. To use a similar example, I could be talking about a good friend of mine and say, "Yeah, that's my dog!" Then, my girlfriend could get mad at me and say to one of her friends, "Girl, he's just a dog." Exactly same word. Exact same series of sounds. Completely different meanings. It's not about the word it's about what a person is saying. That's how I feel about it.

chucky: You have to realize that I come from a culture of people that have adapted and survived for generations by turning the negative into positive. As slaves, we took the scraps of pig we were given, and grew strong off of chitterlings and pigs' feet. We've taken wearing our siblings' over-sized hand me downs and turned it into a fashion statement. We've taken the desire to make music and the lack of proper equipment to cutting, sampling, and beat-boxing. It's what we do. Is it so far of a stretch to take a word that was used to put us down and attempt to defuse it by making it a term of endearment?

Kev: I completely understand those who refuse to use it. It's a matter of personal taste. But I can't see myself refusing to use the word just because someone else tells me/decides for me that it's a word that is supposed to make me feel a certain way. Dave Chappelle has a joke (during his "Killing Me Softly" stand-up set, I believe) where he questions who decided that the word "nigger" was going to disturb black people forever. He talks about a committee of racists coming together to create a word for that sole purpose. I wish I could find a clip of it.

I wish you could find that clip too, then maybe I'd understand. My point of view though, is that the word hasn't become positive - it's just picking a scab. If it was now a positive word silly white boys that think they're down could use it. It's at worst a negative word and at best an other making word - as in - I'm so different and so apart from you that I have words that people would hurt you for using. I can see your point about turning it into an endearment but I think it's a bad thing for our country as a whole to have a word that divides.

Ash, don’t get me wrong I have loved that expression since you introduced me to it. I am not one who is all don’t make fun of the little baby. I will often call my son dumbass, and even my wife loves the term. If there has ever been a great expression for babies, you have shown me the light.

Troy, I just don’t feel comfortable saying it, yet I don’t get uncomfortable if it’s used in front of me. I read a book by Kareem Abdul Jabbar when I was a kid, and he talked about the N word in it. He did not hate that word, but he hated the fact that there were no good derogatory terms for white people. He talked about the first time someone called him that, and he did not want to respond with the classic honkey, instead he called the guy a milk bottle. That story cracks me up to this day.

Kevin, I wonder sometimes if I'd be that person if I had a kid. If my husband calls my dog fat I'm all like "shush! You'll hurt her feelings. Dogs can tell when you're saying something mean." Have I mentioned today that I'm retarded? OK.

Milk bottle huh? That doesn't even make any sense...haha.

Chucky, if you haven't seen "Killin' Them Softly" then you're doing yourself a disservice. Insanely funny! I'm not sure that the "nigger committee" joke is on there, but that's beside the point. This is just a random clip from the set.

I think part of the reason there is no good derogatory term for white people is because white people choose to not be degraded by such terms. Honestly, if some guy on the street calls you a honkey, you're going to go on about your day and just think to yourself, "Wow, that was dumb." But, black people choose to be all up in arms when they hear the word "nigger" and that's partly what gives the word it's power. We choose to be offended, which makes the word effective, which is the reason it's still around today.

HAAA, I FOUND IT!!! Turns out it was Def Comedy Jam.

TroyPowers says..."We choose to be offended, which makes the word effective" Exactly! Words by themselves are neutral, without power, except the power we vest them with. The same thing goes for symbols too. The confederate flag is very popular with a lot of young guys around here, (the northeast), and to 99% of the guys who display it, it is a symbol of rebellion, nothing more. They are genuinely perplexed by the attitude of a lot of black people who take offense. I am perplexed at the "black Leaders" (who votes? When?) who excoriate people for giving offense even inadvertantly. As a French-Irish-Native (canadian)American, I chuckle at the PC crowd who check the list daily to see what words are approved before they speak, but still use terms like hooligan, shenanegans, "Paddy Wagon", (golf has even made a slur term for Irishmen an official term of the game!) (mulligan) But as you say Troy, I choose not to be oddended

On a different note: Chucky, with your wit and sharp perception, coupled with your extremely sensitive bullshit detector, I think you'd make a very good mother. I'm sure you would equip your children emotionaly to deal with this world. And then your sense of humor could live on an' on.

This negress will cop to using the word (and much of the time it's toward/about people that aren't even black). Do I feel guilty about using it? Sometimes. Do I cringe every time I hear a non-black person say it, irrespective of its context? Absolutely. I will always be suspect of that "look what I can get away with" m.o. that Troy speaks on above. The word was created by one group of people to make another group feel like they were less, and, coming from someone not black, there will forever be an element of that for me. I concur with Troy's statement that, by black people using the word amongst ourselves, that we're making the best out of a bad situation, we'd probably be better of on the whole by eliminating it from everyday conversation. But then, doesn't doing that give the word its original power back?...Hell, this is too much heavy thinking for a Saturday ;)

Since we're dishing about brilliant comedians who incorporate the word into their acts, I'd like to add Paul Mooney into the mix. I don't know exactly how steadfast he's sticking to omitting "nigger/nigga" from his act, but I feel he's doing disservice to his routine, the world of comedy, and society at large by doing so. I don't think we're allowed to post mp3s in comments or I so would post Mooney clip :( Help, anyone?

btw, it's almost too depressing to think about how true that first Chappelle clip is- seriously.

Sure you can post it. On your own MOG page, click the "upload mp3" button, and it will give you the screen where you can make a post. Then upload the mp3 as you would to any other MOG post. After that, simply copy and paste the code it gives you and paste it into a comment here. Voila!

Well, I'll be damned. I pored over the MOG forum and I could have just asked the man- Powers, indeed! Thank you, sir.

I dont get offended by much, however if someone calls me a moron, that gets under my skin

I am still trying to find one of the Chappelle Show skits that had me snarf the beer I was drinking at the time... totally peed myself on that one, til then, I gots me some Rock.

Before that & to add to this discussion - I am all for taking words that hold such negative meanings & taking all the power out of those negative connotations. How we go about doing it with a word that makes most people's skin crawl at its utterance - that I don't know. & though I appreciate the importance of how a word is used (great point Troylove), any time I have seen someone of any race other than African American, it's fallen on some really angry & pained ears. Unfortunately, I don't think this one has an easy answer.

& Troy I have to say - I really _RESENT_ the fact that you don't think we American girls are _SLUTTY_ enough. Me, I am ALL ABOUT the Slutty, gentlemen, welcome to "_The SLUT_" !!!! (Closer by NIN playing in the background) ;P

Chapelle is unknown over here, but the few times a MOGger has dropped one of his videos it's been brilliant. These two are an amazing mix of being very funny with a serious core. The terrorist piece is fantastic. Personally, I always think of Richard Pryor on this subject. In one of the stand-up films he talks about going to Africa, looking out the hotel window and realising that everyone is black, everyone is equal. It leads to the realisation, in his words (and I'm paraphrasing) 'when we call ourselves nigger we do ourselves a disservice.'

_HERE it IS !!!!!_

What I find interesting to add to this dialogue is a snippet from Inside the Actors Studio. (James Lipton be damned - he mentions wanting a tattoo that his wife shoots down _ONE MORE TIME_ & I just don't know...) Dave expresses his desire, at this time, not to use the word on TV. The clip directly before this one is the one with "The Niggar Family", (& still gotta say this skit slays me). He talks about his movie _Block Party_ too... then the questions from Bernard Peuvot (or somepin like dat).

It's great that people are using these words with humor to take the meaning out of word but it also fuels the fire for people who aren't soo funny.....have you ever heard of Johnny Rebel or David Allan Coe....alright, I'm going to keep my mouth shut now.

Ah...I'd seen the first Chapelle one but not the second. It's funny. It's funny because it's true (as in, it's still offensive.)

Anyhoo, you said up there that white people choose not to be degraded by racial slurs aimed at them and I immediately thought of this:

It's not entirely true, but I laugh at the credit he (and you) give us.

Deadman, well shucks. :)