Healthcare is a Good, Not a Right...Rock 'N' Roll 'N' Paulitics...(Ron Paul)
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Artist:
Political philosopher Richard Weaver famously and correctly stated that ideas have consequences. Take for example ideas about rights versus goods. Natural law states that people have rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. A good is something you work for and earn. It might be a need, like food, but more "goods" seem to be becoming "rights" in our culture, and this has troubling consequences. It might seem harmless enough to decide that people have a right to things like education, employment, housing or healthcare. But if we look a little further into the consequences, we can see that the workings of the community and economy are thrown wildly off balance when people accept those ideas. First of all, other people must pay for things like healthcare. Those people have bills to pay and families to support, just as you do. If there is a "right" to healthcare, you must force the providers of those goods, or others, to serve you. Obviously, if healthcare providers were suddenly considered outright slaves to healthcare consumers, our medical schools would quickly empty. As the government continues to convince us that healthcare is a right instead of a good, it also very generously agrees to step in as middle man. Politicians can be very good at making it sound as if healthcare will be free for everybody. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The administration doesn't want you to think too much about how hospitals will be funded, or how you will somehow get something for nothing in the healthcare arena. We are asked to just trust the politicians. Somehow it will all work out. Universal Healthcare never quite works out the way the people are led to believe before implementing it. Citizens in countries with nationalized healthcare never would have accepted this system had they known upfront about the rationing of care and the long lines. As bureaucrats take over medicine, costs go up and quality goes down because doctors spend more and more of their time on paperwork and less time helping patients. As costs skyrocket, as they always do when inefficient bureaucrats take the reins, government will need to confiscate more and more money from an already foundering economy to somehow pay the bills. As we have seen many times, the more money and power that government has, the more power it will abuse. The frightening aspect of all this is that cutting costs, which they will inevitably do, could very well mean denying vital services. And since participation will be mandatory, no legal alternatives will be available.
The government will be paying the bills, forcing doctors and hospitals to dance more and more to the government's tune. Having to subject our health to this bureaucratic insanity and mismanagement is possibly the biggest danger we face. The great irony is that in turning the good of healthcare into a right, your life and liberty are put in jeopardy. Instead of further removing healthcare from the market, we should return to a true free market in healthcare, one that empowers individuals, not bureaucrats, with control of healthcare dollars. My bill HR 1495 the Comprehensive Healthcare Reform Act provides tax credits and medical savings accounts designed to do just that.
-Ron Paul-
http://www.house.gov/paul/index.shtml
Here's some other links to article's about this subject:
Inside the Monstrous Obamacare Bureaucracy
http://www.creators.com/conservative/michelle-malkin.html
RNC chairman: Obama's health care is socialism
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jlMpJGn28kqCcgU-aGcYE_ZHW-ywD99IA2A81
Locating MOG account...
Comments (29)
Ron Paul would be a complete idiot then...
Why? I remember when Cinton did a similar thing with, I think it was HMO's & here we are.
health care, along with education, is a basic human right & should be freely available to EVERYONE... remember, i come from a country that has a national health system that has worked very well for a very long time...
Sorry Mike I rushed my answer, & my info is not correct. HMO's limit your choice's, but you can pay a bit more for better treatment with PPO like under Blue Cross insurance. Clinton wanted to pass a similar thing like Obama's plan that would put certain limits on what doctors could do. I heard somewhere that your country is having problems with their healthcare system now. I agree education is important, & the information is there if you want it. There are some great medical websites like medline plus with some great info. I think this problem should be handled on a state. or local level, not at a federal level. So far the federal Gov hasn't been doing such a great job on things.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003139.htm
I won't belabor the point, but I don't believe a word of this. I see no reason not to believe that status quo is what the repubs really want. Sorry RGM, it is just going to get worse as the recession goes deeper. Manifest destiny is no longer the rule of law.
Oatmeal: So your for universal health care, or not? I'm not sure what your saying. I just say that if this (universal Health care) happens. Someone's going to have to fork over some cash to pay the bills. Like you said, we are going deeper in a recession, & I'd agrue that we are technically in a deppression.
In the end There will a lot less people with jobs to carry the burdon.
Here's one job that seems to always have an opening lately...
No.
There are so many things wrong with this. Sorry Ray, but access to health care (or education, or food, or shelter) should never be seen as a good. A television is a good. A car is a good. Certain basic levels of all of the above MUST be a right for humanity to prosper. I find it rather odd that so many people still buy into the idea that MILLIONS of people should be shut out of basic health care access, just because they are poor. That's cold.
I want to address your comment that information is out there - it seemed to go along with the mention of education, but then your posted a link from Medline, so I will presume that you're suggesting Medline as an alternative to professional health care? As a librarian, I will say that Medline is a good, trusted resource for information. But the link you posted is a perfect example of why it is so important for everyone to have basic health care access. First, the person must know that Medline exists - let alone have access to the internet. But that article really doesn't tell me much, if I happen to be suffering from discolored urine. There are 20, count them 20 possible causes of discolored urine - this article doesn't tell me why I am suffering. Only a visit to a health care professional will give me the answer, and then prescribe the course that must be taken to get better. It could be beets, or it could be prostate cancer - things which require very different courses of action. Not to mention, Medline cannot write a prescription.
Next, lets look at the cost of insurance. Why is it so high? Oh, that's right - insurance companies only exist to earn a profit. They don't give a damn about your ailment, and will make every effort to deny your claim - if you're lucky enough to have insurance in the first place.
Let me use our personal situation as an example. I work full time, and am fortunate to have full insurance coverage through Group Health. This is a good thing. If we want, we can have Michael covered through my insurance plan for approximately 400 dollars a month. That would be $4800 a year, or over 10% of my take home pay. What if we had children we had to cover as well? Tack on another $250 a month per child, for another $3000 per year. Not acceptable, should we want to pay our rent and eat.
So, what are our alternatives? Not much. Currently, Michael doesn't have insurance coverage - we pay out of pocket for any and all medical care that he needs. So, what do we do? We avoid any and all medical care that might arise - just like MILLIONS of Americans who also have no insurance.
The arguments against national health care are nothing but scare tactics. The argument that the "government will decide who gets care" is ridiculous. As it stands, the insurance companies are the ones making the decisions about who gets care and who doesn't. Do you really think that some bean counter in an insurance company knows better than your physician what treatment you need? And again, if you're one of the MILLIONS that don't have insurance, the decision is already made for you.
I'm aware there's an argument that people who are fortunate to have more money than others shouldn't have to pay for the care of others. Have you ever heard of the common good? Is it not more desirable to care for those less fortunate and create a strong society than it is to turn a blind eye to the suffering that people endure every day, be it lack of health care, homelessness, or... whatever. I am sick and tired of all of these arguments that fall back on the ultimate bottom line - the dollar in your wallet. The funny thing is, the corporations don't give a crap about you, or me, or anybody else - they just want that dollar and will do everything to get it. People that argue for the corporate status quo are just blind to the truth.
One more thing - please take the time to look at some of these statistics.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/costs.shtml
If we continue on as things are now, we're all going to be bankrupt.
Change can be a good thing!
ANARCHY
ANARCHY
ANARCHY
Libaraian...: I just posted the medline link for a resource of info Ann, not to self medicate. I relize many symptons crossover to other illnesses. I suggest you see a doctor if you have any bad symptons so they can see if it's something or nothing. Doctors have suggested Medline b4, & being educated by sites like this can help give feed back to your doctor. There are charity groups out there that do help the poor, but they are starting to feel the results of the current recession. I think insurance companies don't know better than a doctor, I'd say the same about our gov. I have seen the results of socialized healthcare in LA. I've waited almost two days with my mom to see a doctor at USC medical center. People sometimes die in the waiting room. I think the cost of medical care needs to be lowered. There are some meds that are marked up to 8000 percent. Another thing I've heard, he wants to take care of illigal immigrants under this plan. We're broke, I have friends losing their jobs, let alone millions of Americans. How are going to pay for this? I'll just say Obama's plan sounds good. I'm just reading between the lines & trying to be realistic that's all. I hope his plan works out, I see it happening. I hear where your coming from Ann. BTW Ann the link you posted is not working.
Obama's Health Plan
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/140494.php
:)
Pimp: Keith you crack me up dude! I'll have to admit that I'm a borderline anarchist.
\m/
at this point
IT IS THE ONLY SOLUTION
"I wanna get my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" - J Morrison
and you can damned well bet it is all going up in flames
Hell yea Pimp!
Mog is evil. I just lost a good long post in response here. I was logged in, and it timed out on me. Bastards!
Let me summarize:
Health care is a right for EVERYONE. As humans, we should be fighting for the basic rights of all humans, no matter who they are.
Stop reading and listening to Malkin and Medved - balance yourself by spending some time with Thom Hartmann. He is one of the most intelligent, thoughtful people I know of - no hate, no hysteria.
Oh for F@#$*#)@$* sake.
Can I edit that? Of course not. I shall continue.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/
Michael has NEVER had a bad experience with British National Health Service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England)
"The NHS was born out of a long-held ideal that good healthcare should be available to all, regardless of wealth. At its launch by the then minister of health, Aneurin Bevan, on July 5 1948, it had at its heart three core principles: * That it meet the needs of everyone * That it be free at the point of delivery * That it be based on clinical need, not ability to pay"
This subject boils down to human need. HUMAN need. No human should be denied health care. Period.
Costs? See my previous post for costs as they stand now. Unaffordable. Everyone seems to fail to mention that premiums and deductables GO AWAY with national health care. In England, there is a flat rate taken from your wages - yes, that's a "TAX," but nobody has to worry that they won't get health treatment.
Damn. I'm tired, and totally annoyed that I lost my post.
Please, please don't be duped by the scare tactics of those against universal health care. They're looking out for their wallets, at the expense of millions of people like you and me.
If you really believe that Obama's plan is good, then shout that from the rooftops! I heartily believe that the benefits far outweight the costs - and that the costs won't be as painful to you and I as some are trying to make us think.
Big pharma, and insurance companies will not benefit from universal health care - but really, should we feel bad about that?
NO.
Social change requires risks, and I for one hope our government has the balls to take a few risks. It can only be better than what we have now. I would happily pay a little more in taxes for health coverage for me, and you, and even those illegal immigrants. We have them to thank for our inexpensive food, you know...
and Keith - YOU ARE CORRECT!!!!!!
Well Ann, I'm too burned out to put on a long response lol! You make a lot of good points, & you know where I stand (I hope).I think everyone should have good health care, and I'll just let the chips fall where they may at this point. I just don't trust Obama personally.
Sorry Ann I couldn't go lol! Here are my lazy responses.
John Stossel - Sick in America - Part 6 (of 6) American
Health Care in Critical Condition (the article is from 2007)
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3580676&page=1
Ron Paul on Immigration
Plus I don't see my food bill going down. I think it's also an insult to the illegal immigrant to get under pay so some food companies can turnover a big profit. Mexico needs to take care of their citizens properly, not us. Canada doesn't & shouldn't take care of illigal Americans. I hear you need a job first to get citizenship up in Canada.
John Stossel - Sick in America - Part 5 (of 6)
My wife & have payed out of pocket for an endocrinologist in LA. He charges around $100.00 a visit, but will work with you on price & will sometimes cut the bill in half. He diagnosed me for a lot of my illnesses I have, & is a great doctor. I didn't have great luck under my PPO.
I have to also say that I think the illegal immigrant is the 21st century slave IMO.
John Stossel - Sick in America - Part 3 (of 6) (free healthcare in other countries)
Just because a health clinic is run by a non-profit does not mean that it fills the need or that it does not accept payment from insurance companies. If we rely on charity what happens when charity dries up. Furthermore, who are we relying on - extremely wealthy that already run America's economic policy more or less. NO thanks, I will take a guarantee every day of the week, crumbs as they may be.
As for the illegal immigrant thing, I highly doubt what you say. I would like to see that in writing in the bill, then I would believe it.
There is no way costs come down without government intervention. And BTW, all that R&D mark-up that goes with pharmaceuticals does not guarantee better outcomes, it just guarantees that companies can get new patents that will replace the old one's that expire after an amount of time. Market share, corporate certainty, and profit margin don't go well with progress and system-wide efficiency.
As for your personal distrust of Obama, I don't get it. Usually people that go that route have personal disappointments in the government. But distrust? What on earth has he done that is such a lie?
"Just because a health clinic is run by a non-profit does not mean that it fills the need or that it does not accept payment from insurance companies. If we rely on charity what happens when charity dries up. Furthermore, who are we relying on - extremely wealthy that already run America's economic policy more or less. NO thanks, I will take a guarantee every day of the week, crumbs as they may be"
I've dealed with both with charities, & social medicine. I'm not convinced on the latter.
"As for the illegal immigrant thing, I highly doubt what you say. I would like to see that in writing in the bill, then I would believe it."
Which part? I'm sure what your asking.
"There is no way costs come down without government intervention. And BTW, all that R&D mark-up that goes with pharmaceuticals does not guarantee better outcomes, it just guarantees that companies can get new patents that will replace the old one's that expire after an amount of time. Market share, corporate certainty, and profit margin don't go well with progress and system-wide efficiency."
It's called competition for the best price.
"As for your personal distrust of Obama, I don't get it. Usually people that go that route have personal disappointments in the government. But distrust? What on earth has he done that is such a lie?"
Chicago scandal could take the shine off the Obama inauguration:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5321475.ece
Chicago scandal could take the shine off the Obama inauguration.
Sounds like speculation to me, and I was not aware that O. had anything to do with Blago. You said you don't trust him. I said that was probably because of some personal experience with the gov't.
RGM I don't like to go round and round, but I think most American's that are afraid of Obama have very emotional reasons for it that are not nearly as logical as you portray the market economy actors. I think it has to do with the unfortunate byproduct of past racial politics, and an uncritical eye for how the system really works. We are all taxed by the wealthy who have by far the most to gain from this pyramid scheme named capitalism. Is there a better alternative, almost surely there is not. People are people, and some people are born self-centered, but the wonderful thing about America is the check and balance of the democracy, whether informed or not. I do not think for one moment that Obama is ruining our great and flawed nation, and I wish people would just be more open about their fears in stead of calling the man a liar. It is shallow. Obama is a centrist, all efforts to portray him otherwise just make me think that the people with the most control to lose are freaked out.
And medecine, please don't get me started. How much money have we spent on Cancer research but we allow companies to keep decades-old damning in house studies of the cancerous properties of their products secret as "trade secrets". Our medical profit margins are predicated on treating outcomes of illness not preventing illness. All this money that is supposedly efficiently allocated is really just a band aid. Why? Because many industries have been built on unhealthy processes. $ talks RGM.
As always I hope I have maintained a respectful tone. Best -Oat.
"American's that are afraid of Obama have very emotional reasons for it that are not nearly as logical as you portray the market economy actors"
I think Obama supporters are just as bad as Bush suppoter's. They seem in to be in denial, & sometimes want to be right for the sake of being right. I've backed up myself, & continue to. I think I'll just let you think about all this & let the chips fall where they may also. This is all just food for thought, & not a slam. I'll leave you with somemore food for thought.
"since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Romans 2:15
"Streamline men who think in slogans, & talk in bullets" -Goerge Orwell-
Thanks for being respectful, & I hope I've the same. I just see these post as a table we can slam our fist on, but leave it there, & walk away as friends.
Peace...
:)
I don't know quite what the Romans quote means. And I don't think you have necessarily responded to my comments by grouping me as an Obama supporter.
I would say that I am an Obama truster, in that I think he understands the issues and truly tries to find a way forward. But the system is far more than him, and he is not dismantling it because that would be political suicide. Naturally my emotions color my perception, and believe me, we would not be here now if people were more clear and resonable in assessing our leaders. As for the Obama slogans, I totally hear you there. It IS OBNOXIOUS. Makes me roll my eyes.
But c'mon, he is not trying to spend money on illegal immigrants, if someone does that it is going to be some southwestern reprersentative in the house. Obama don't write the laws, he sets the agenda though. Nor is hje a socialist. He is addressing something that a huge portion of America wants.
And you definitely did not address my comment about needing a governmental market player to drive down competitive pricing. (e.g. referring to the contract price of covered Rx that government could get in negotiations) Fact is we have a medical industry concerned about profits. And we have a political battle between thiose that profit from health care, and those that want better access to health care.
No hard feelings though, we just live here for a while and then on to the next mystery. The world is not for pefection, it is for moving through as we become enlightened with love and compassion.
"I don't know quite what the Romans quote means. And I don't think you have necessarily responded to my comments by grouping me as an Obama supporter. I would say that I am an Obama truster, in that I think he understands the issues and truly tries to find a way forward"
Romns is just speaking of the conscious, & how it can influence thinking. Guess in that I'm saying let your conscious be your guide, which I see that with a lot of people. It's juat something to keep in the back of your mine.
I don't see the diffence between supporter, & truster. You do support his views. Maybe I'm just missing something, I don't know.
Perhaps you arew right about supporter v. truster. When given the choice I would take Obama over pretty much anyone on the national stage right now. But I am always open to a logical argument why health care reform particularly is bad. So far I have not heard one that actually backs the complaints up with reasonable facts.
The world is of the mind, life is of the heart.
"But c'mon, he is not trying to spend money on illegal immigrants,"
"And you definitely did not address my comment about needing a governmental market player to drive down competitive pricing. (e.g. referring to the contract price of covered Rx that government could get in negotiations) Fact is we have a medical industry concerned about profits. And we have a political battle between thiose that profit from health care, and those that want better access to health care."
Thought I did, by pretty much saying our gov is broke. How can they without money, & where are they going to get it? Too many people are losing their jobs. But here somemore stuff anyways. Don't know if this answers your question.
"So far I have not heard one that actually backs the complaints up with reasonable facts"
Seriuosly? At this point dude, I'll let you do the leg work yourself, and weigh everything out if you want. I think I've done my part. I'll try to convince you, but in the end your the one who make's the choice for yourself.
Peace!
BTW, I just got this on Facebook. It's an interesting read...
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/house-healthcare-talks-break-down-in-anger-2009-07-24.html