Torturing the Rule of Law...Ron Pau,l & Sum Heaven & Hell...
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While Congress is sidetracked by who said what to whom and when, our nation finds itself at a crossroads on the issue of torture. We are at a point where we must decide if torture is something that is now going to be considered justifiable and reasonable under certain circumstances, or is America better than that? "Enhanced interrogation" as some prefer to call it, has been used throughout history, usually by despotic governments, to cruelly punish or to extract politically useful statements from prisoners. Governments that do these things invariably bring shame on themselves. In addition, information obtained under duress is incredibly unreliable, which is why it is not admissible in a court of law. Legally valid information is freely given by someone of sound mind and body. Someone in excruciating pain, or brought close to death by some horrific procedure is not in any state of mind to give reliable information, and certainly no actions should be taken solely based upon it. For these reasons, it is illegal in the United States and illegal under Geneva Conventions. Simulated drowning, or water boarding, was not considered an exception to these laws when it was used by the Japanese against US soldiers in World War II. In fact, we hanged Japanese officers for war crimes in 1945 for water boarding. Its status as torture has already been decided by our own courts under this precedent. To look the other way now, when Americans do it, is the very definition of hypocrisy. Matthew Alexander, author of "How to Break a Terrorist" used non-torture methods of interrogation in Iraq with much success. In fact, one cooperative jihadist told him, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate." Alexander also found that in Iraq "the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq." Alexander's experiences unequivocally demonstrate that losing our humanity is not beneficial or necessary in fighting terror. The current administration has reversed its position on releasing evidence of torture by the previous administration and we must ask why. A great and moral nation would have the courage to face the truth so it could abide by the rule of law. To look the other way necessarily implicates all of us and would of course further radicalize people against our troops on the ground. Instead, we have the chance to limit culpability for torture to those who were truly responsible for these crimes against humanity. Not everyone who was given illegal orders obeyed them. Many FBI agents understood that an illegal order must be disobeyed and they did so. The others must be held accountable, so that all of us are not targeted for blowback for the complicity of some. The government's own actions and operations in torturing people, and in acting on illegally obtained and unreliable information to kill and capture, are the most radicalizing forces at work today, not any religion, nor the fact that we are rich and free. The fact that our government engages in evil behavior under the auspices of the American people is what poses the greatest threat to the American people, and it must not be allowed to stand.
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Comments (13)
Try paying off two cars and a house in todays economy, now thats torture. we'll work ourselves to death and still lose everything. hope x box comes out with a begging game so our kids can figure that shit out before they starve to death behind the local videogame store. Honestly tortureing terrorists is the least of my worries. Its hard to care about war crimes when work and money is scarce. I was asked the other day if I was an anarchist. I'm not, nor am I a democrat or republican, i'm not even libertarian. What i am Is a pissed off american and I think that pretty soon were gonna be a dominant political party!
I hear ya'!
You sir...are so incredibly....I don't know what to say to you.
I guess i should thank you for making my blood boil.
"We are at a point where we must decide if torture is something that is now going to be considered justifiable and reasonable under certain circumstances, or is America better than that?"
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
I guess i should thank you for making my blood boil.
deadman...: Welcome, it's what I do lol!
Peace
;)
dansem...: BTW what do you think of the new Heaven & Hell?
In this ionstance my friend...u have done me a great favor. Thank you.
I was in a long, heated political discussion with a Vietnam Vet yesterday. This was one of the topics we touched on briefly and I gotta say there are alternatives to things such as waterboarding and the drowning and such like you mentioned. The one thing about war and its myriad of attrocities is that torture and things of that nature will always go hand and hand. It's truly horrible to think about, experience, or see. Humanities inhumanity.
deadman...: Welcome...
;)
psuedo...: Well these are Ron Pauls words. I just respect the guy, & agree with a lot he says. He brings up some good points on the issue.
:)
I'll have to admit that I originally fell very much into the camp of Mr.Paul, but I have heard a few folks who make the case for legal, transparent torture that I haven't dismissed out of hand.
The argument that we will use any means necessary to protect the country does resonate with me a little bit. It is an argument you can make....BUT when the people who make the argument immediately jump off into a screed on the current administrations ideas and how they are wrong, they then lose the debate in my eyes.
I think there could be a debate here, but when the pro torture folks start making it into an us vs. them thing where people who are against torture are unamerican, I just tune out.
Early philosphers (Plato ,I think) said it was the right of the state to lie..to protect its people. I'm pretty sure a lot of folks in Washington subscribe to that philosophy, but it would be nice if their was some tranceparency for that too.
If we are going to torture or hand folks over to others for torture folks should be accountable. And If we "can't handle" the truth now, there needs to be some entity that operates in the countries interest to oversee the lies or breaking of laws that a government does....before the lies are made and the laws are broken.
When we have the debate after the fact it doen't work. If the folks in charge of accountabilty could engage in the debate...in private, but with someone acting in the interest of the voters, before the lies and law breaking, then we as voters could hold folks accountable.
Perhaps it would be best if there was something more than congressional review of proposed lying and lawbreaking.
I guess in the first place we have to admit to ourselves that we have allowed our leaders to lie and break laws in our name for a long,long time. Does it have to be that way? Maybe. I think we need to decide that question first.
So yeah, Ron Paul has some good points, but if the post 9-11 actions of our government are judged as illegal and folks are held accountable will we change anything? Maybe we will feel better, maybe the world will think more of us,maybe there will be fewer folks drawn to extremism..but the system that allowed these things to happen will remain. (side note:poverty is another great terrorism booster)
When Japan and Germany reconstituted their governments after WW 2, I believe they began to address the type of corcerns that are coming up here. Those folks put major curbs on the goverments power (especially when it comes to war). I think we need to do that here.
Thanks for posting..made me think a little bit (about something other than my world o' schoolwork).
Ron Paul RAWKS!
and heaven & hell does too
lets see we torture terrorist fukkers
they cut our heads off
yeah i like that one better
OFF WITH THEIR OBAMADAMN HEADS
"The others must be held accountable, so that all of us are not targeted for blowback for the complicity of some."
"lets see we torture terrorist fukkers they cut our heads off"
I'm divided on the issue I think Ron Paul brings up some great points like this. You also bring up valid a point also Keith. But we are dealing with people who have a very diffrent worldview than ours, & it seems justified for what they are doing to our troops. But at the sametime it is illegal & the worlds eye's are on the U.S. I think we need to just get our asses out of there. How long have we been in there rebuilding? Lets get out of there, fix our economy, hold those accountable for getting us in this mess & crimes done to our nation & keep our guns pointed outward protecting our borders. Sorry, but I don't think it's our job to play superman. Now I'll get off my soapbox lol!
gotcha
but i guess my pont was torture is not ass bad as bheading3
i am a passifist hippie
until you kill my brother,mother,son,neighbors....
then i am dirt fucking harry
SOMEBODY gots to pay n pay pay
war what is is good for?
I hear ya' Keith.
Cody B: "So yeah, Ron Paul has some good points, but if the post 9-11 actions of our government are judged as illegal and folks are held accountable will we change anything? Maybe we will feel better, maybe the world will think more of us,maybe there will be fewer folks drawn to extremism..but the system that allowed these things to happen will remain."
Well I think one big problems is the system that suppose to be there is being ignored, & that's why you have actions of our government being judged as illigal. I'd have say they fall under the catagory of a white collar crimminal IMO. Sorry to say I see somethings black & white here. If we the citizens commit a federal crime well they're severe consequences. They do it, well nothing happens. We are in a recession & they are handing out bailouts to car companies. Then they call us irresponsible, sorry man that just bs. We have to follow the standard, but they don't? I can go down the list, but I'm sure you've heard it all before. One last thing we invaded a country unessarily, so that says it's OK to invade us, & we the people are the ones who get screwed over. I see why people called Bush Hitler in that sense. I'll get off my soapbox again lol!
BTW, now that you've mentioned Plato I've have to dive into the Great Dialogues of Plato book I have sitting here. Thanks for posting on here.
:)