MOG

Suggestions? I'll say! You do it all wrong!!

By which I mean, of course, that this is one of the most interesting and insightful things I've read on MOG. It makes me want to go and listen to Bach's Mass in B Minor.

Just as absurd and extreme as listening to purely chart music, or music in a particular language, or only musical pieces over 10 minutes that feature Coronet solos.

Interesting read. You say:

"So, for example, I believe that we have no choice in the music we listen to; we only listen to music that God wants us to hear."

and then you go on to say:

"Its just that I simply refuse to listen to any music that was created with the sole intention of placating the masses or making money."

Wow, it appears that you have a God that can discern the integrity of each and every artist and their creations and then determines that you will not listen to anything that falls into this category. Not just that but it also appears God makes an exception for your freewill in allowing you to refuse to listen to this type of music, even though you have no choice.

So in essence you are using hardware and software that is on a whole 'nother level!

iGodPod iGodTunes

I'm speechless. I'm going give this one some more thought before I leave a lengthy comment. Obviously you put a lot of thought into this post and I'd like to leave something similar in return. Thanks for sharing. I'm a little beside myself.

Thanks for your comment Wanbli! I did say I 'refuse' to listen to said kinds of music, I never meant to imply I was successful in that refusal. I have to listen to said music everyday in traffic coming from other cars, in television commercials and in incidental music on CNN between footage of bombings in Iraq, in sports bar restaurants, etc... I think I should be able to have a break from the sound of capitalism when I get home.

Also Wanbli, in my opinion my God is everybody's God. Its the same God everybody believes in upon being born. It is God by the definition of God: omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, without a beginning or end, unable to be described adequately by language, or at least by human discourse. It is the God that creates all religions and all other Gods by virtue of its definition.

That's my opinion anyway! Thanks again for your comment!

This is a great post. If you haven't done so already you should check out the Dilbert Blog where Scott Adam has posted many blogs talking about similar beliefs and debating the existence of free will.

Oh, and for religious music I would recommend Jars of Clay, they are a Christian rock band. My favorite song by them is Flood.

Thanks democlez, much appreciated!

Jars of Clay are great!!

You don't believe in free will? That's got to suck. This isn't music related, but how do you explain things like the Holocaust and Guantanamo Bay and all the horrible things people do to other people? Why would God allow that? The traditional religious answer is that God gives everyone free will, and part of the price of that freedom is the capacity to do evil. But if we're all just puppets of God, and he's a benevolent God, why would he let those things happen?

I admire your dedication to music that's meaningful, though. I personally find I can get meaning from studio pop confections like Foreigner doing "I wanna know what Love is" (quasi-random, that's what's playing on my iTunes right now) just as much as more 'spiritual' music, but that's an individual decision to make. It takes determination to cut out the crap.

That's a very good question, Jorobot. We can talk theoretically about things like free will and violence, but the fact of the matter is people are being killed and tortured around the world every day and it is up all people whether 'believer' or 'athiest' to solve the problem.

I am simply going by the definition of God as omniscient. If God is omniscient, then it follows that God knows everything we have done, are doing, and will do in the future. It then logically follows there is no free will, because God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.

As far as the Holocaust and Guantanamo Bay, as two examples of many, are concerned, I think there is an aspect of God that we humans can never understand. The closest I can come to understanding it is that God has a plan for each individual in the ongoing saga that is the continuation of life. I can ask, why does God allow people to die; I can just as easily ask why does God allow people to be born. God wants us to evolve to a place where we can handle the power and capacity of the brains God gave us. We don't have to act like animals in the wild, fighting over territory. Our brains are more evolved than that. Its just a matter of us reaching a point where we can truly accept that the mystery of life can be found only if we allow it to continue.

I believe that God brings people to an understanding of God in different ways. In God's eyes there is no inherent difference between the integrity of Jessica Simpson or of Chumbawamba. At least that's my opinion. When I was a kid I loved Foreigner's 'Double Vision' and 'Head Games' and for that reason it has spiritual significance to me. I love Celine Dion...what can I say?

That sounds fair. You do at least acknowledge that's it's up to us as people to work together and act against suffering.

I like Double Vision, too. Foreigner's pretty badass.

Hmm, thought-provoking post. That's a broad spectrum of religious music there; if you've got Alistair Crowley and Mormon Tabernacle Choir, that is, in fact, the two extreme ends of the spectrum, IMO. I agree that God is omniscient, but I disagree that that fact means we have no free will. If you know why we're born, and why we're here on earth, then it becomes clear that we do still have free will, and like Jorobot says, we then have the capacity to do good or evil.

Thanks whosyrdad! I see your point. I do agree that we all have a responsiblity to discover what our purpose on earth is. I'm not convinced that we have free will. I'm also not sure that the lines between good and evil are so clear cut. In my opinion good cannot exist without evil existing as well, just as happiness can't exist without sadness, love can't exist without hate, pleasure can't exist without pain, etc.. Thanks again!

"Since to me God on the condition of being God already knows everything we will do in the future, I don’t believe we have free will." Therefore, Adolf Hitler did not have free will, and was merely acting as a tool for God? Hence you are claiming that either God was ridding the world of Jews he didn't want, or was sacrificing the lives of Jews for the benefit of Humanity as a whole. (Allegedly not the first time he's done that) - Both of which I would consider to be rather controversial points of opinion and require some explaining on your part...

"So, for example, I believe that we have no choice in the music we listen to; we only listen to music that God wants us to hear." If I choose to listen to Deicide, that is God's will?

"Why waste my time with music that doesn’t help to bring me to a deeper understanding of life?" Maybe because music serves more purpose than religious praise EXCLUSIVELY?

"music from around the world that brings religious or spiritual meaning to people’s lives" Buy any Jihad anthems while you were there?

"I’ll add an album to iTunes and sometimes it will be months before I can even hear one song from it." Maybe instead of wasting your money on unlistened albums, give it to the poor and needy, or charities like Christian Aid etc...?

"I did say I ‘refuse’ to listen to said kinds of music, I never meant to imply I was successful in that refusal." What about the music your siblings make? Does that all meet high enough religious standards?

"I love Celine Dion…what can I say?" I think that pretty much says it all.

Sorry for totally wailing on you - I'm not anti religion or anti God - I was raised a Methodist, and a lot of my family are Christians - I just find your approach unreasonable - and sure, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if you were arguing a case for only listening to "Emo" or "Britpop" - but countries tend not to go to war over Fallout Boy and Oasis.

Whether or not free will exists is a major argument in both religion and in philosophy. What I find odd is your assuming that the Ipod is Godlike and will play what you should hear, since any argument for a lack of free will must admit that, free or not, humans periodically make bad decisions. And I've yet to see an Ipod that says "Made in Heaven." The argument for a lack of free will fails on a moral level if it is used to justify one's mistakes. Think I'll stick with taking personal responsibility (which if your argument is serious, you still must do). So there's no reason for accepting the random control of your life by outside forces that are not God. In doing so, you give them Godlike respect, which strikes me as sacreligious.

Also a little unclear as to how stripper music fits in your religious beliefs, although God knows I know there are guys who worship strippers.

Thanks for your comment Ewan! You don't have to apologize for wailing on me, believe me, I've been there myself. Besides, I don't take it personally... :)

You still haven't convinced me that human beings have free will. Is that what you were trying to do? I look at a belief in God from a viewpoint of logic. If one believes that God is omniscient, that is, all knowing, therefore it must follow that God knows everything including our future actions. If God knows our future actions, then we can't do anything that God doesn't already know we are going to do. If we can't do anything that God doesn't already know we are going to do, then it is impossible that we have free will and freedom of choice. Our actions have already been decided for us. I tried in a past comment to emphasize that there is a mystery to God that we humans will never understand. Getting angry at God is like getting angry at a wall, there's just no point to that. I trust God. I'm not going to second-guess God's actions. I'm also not going to have a double standard and believe in God when its convenient for me but when something bad happens blame it on something else.

Any fundamentalist can use anything he wants to promote his cause. A fundamentalist doesn't have to be honest with himself. All a fundamentalist has to do start with a conclusion and then do what he has to do to prove that his conclusion is true, even if that means lying, cheating, and stealing to do so. Are you accusing me of being a fundamentalist? I start from a place of logic. I start at the beginning and work my way up. I don't start at the end and then try to invent things to prove my point that aren't there.

In my opinion everybody is on a path that can bring them closer to God if they want it to. Life is a gift to us. It is a puzzle that we have to put together. God already knows how its going to turn out. We don't. That's why we are humans and God is God.

Thanks again for your comments Ewan! You certainly have strong opinions, and I appreciate that!

do you ever include artists like jim hendrix or neil young, because they ARE GOD?

does spiritual ever get defined as something to play when you want to "get down to business" with a lovely?

just some thoughts.

my tips on itunes usage can be found here:

http://mog.com/david_hyman/blog_post/13886

Hey, I appreciate the response. We actually believe many of the same things, for instance, that good cannot exist without evil, as pleasure cannot exist without pain. I have found that there is a line between good and evil, but the closer we get to that line between good and evil, the blurrier it gets. I don't know if any minds have been changed here, but at least I can feel comfort in being able to articulate a position and incite debate; that's always healthy. David, I prefer not to think of it as "getting down to business", but I feel that the act of intimacy, with my wife, is a profoundly spiritual experience. That's why I find pornography so repugnant; it takes a beautiful thing and casts it before swine, if you will. That's just me, tho.

Thanks RobP! I hope I didn't make it seem like I think iTunes is Godlike! I was trying to say that when I listen to songs in my iTunes under the grouping 'religious' and I have my iTunes switched to 'shuffle' its like letting God decide which songs I listen to. I was certainly not trying to say that my purpose was to surrender control of my life to iTunes, except that now with MOG it sometimes feels I'm doing just that!

As far as my argument for lack of free will I would like to refer you to my response to Ewan above. I hope it is clear that I'm trying to approach this problem from a standpoint of logic.

As far as the question as to why I include stripper music in my iTunes under the 'religious' grouping, well, strippers have been around since the dawn of time! Moses chastized them. They entertained Roman soldiers in the time of Jesus. Some people even say Mary Magdelene was a stripper!

Thanks again RobP!

Hi David! I already have the first Hendrix record in iTunes...I have many of his others on vinyl and I just don't have the money right now to buy them on cd, or the time to convert the vinyl to digital. It is a high priority on my list. I also have many Neil Young cds but now my problem is I need more memory to accomodate them in my iTunes, and once again I'm so broke right now I can't afford to buy more memory. I know, excuses, excuses.

I've already had to temporarily delete some music to make room for new additions. I know this situation will change soon.

As to your second comment, why do you think I have Barry White in my iTunes?

Hi whosyrdad! I too feel we agree about a lot of things, maybe more than we realize! I think healthy debate is always a good thing. Its important to keep an open mind, and also to remember no matter what our differences, we are all part of the human race and equals under God. I hope we can talk again soon!

Fun logical fact about God (sorry, I'm a bit of a philosophy geek:)

Logically, it isn't possible to consistently believe more than three of those statements. No matter what, one of them has to be false, because if God sees evil in the world, and can do something about it, and is good, then that God has to be allowing humans free will, or else he would do something about it.

Josh, you seem to believe that C is false, because God allows evil in order to define good. (This is also often expressed as a belief in a God/Satan duality.) I believe that D is false, because God has allowed for free will. But either is internally consistent. You can also believe that God has no idea what's going on (A is false.) or he never had or no longer has the power to change the world (B is false, a view common to many scientists.)

As for the idea that because God knows all, your future is set...it's conceivable that by saying God knows all, we say God knows what will happen no matter what we choose to do; i.e. he sees a branching future, every possible path that the universe can take. God knows the outcome of any decision we make; but we still have the power to make those decisions.

None of this is exactly provable; you can't really prove or disprove God OR free will.

Wow, I inspired someone. Who would have thunk it?

Hi Jorobot! I don't think I ever posited that God is omnibenevolent. You're right, I don't believe such a thing is possible. God, being God, is beyond good and evil. In my opinion, good and evil are human constructs. Saussure showed that we humans define the meaning of a word from what it is not, i.e. good is good because it isn't its opposite, evil. This is what Saussure called 'difference', if I'm not mistaken (my philosophy is a little rusty). Derrida took this one step further, concluding that if Saussure is right, then we can never have "good" in its purity. Good is always/already haunted by evil, and the other way around. This Derrida called "Différance". Derrida showed the foundation on which meaning in our culture is based is actually not stable at all, on the contrary is subject to eternal change and differing interpretations.

Your 'branching future' idea is appealing to me, and seems to strike a good balance in the solution of the 'free will' problem. It reminds me of the suggestion by some scientists that there are parallel universes, equally real to the one we are in, all around us, and someday we humans will be able to travel between them.

Thanks Jorobot, your post is definitely food for thought!!

You are too modest, dbboucher!

Hi Josh, I really admire the thoughtful and respectful way you interact with people on Mog -- I love to see these ongoing conversations happening, no major upsets or power trips happening here, just a lot of great questioning. Thanks for this.

Thanks Jenny! My parents raised me right!

Yowza. That's a rather unique perspective Josh. I don't encounter it very often anymore. (I don't think it withstands much logic though. Omiscience is pretty problematic on paper.)

I don't mean this to be insulting but as an atheist, I think the process of picking my music is infinitely easier than you seem have it! I can listen to whatever I want! :)

I'm all about free will and there certainly is a place for meaningless or nonuplifting music in the world. Everybody grooves to something. "It's a got a good beat and I can dance to it" is more than enough to substantiate music somedays.

"I had way too much music and not enough computer memory to fit it all in."

This situation must not be tolerated! There is no such thing as too much music! Get an extra hard drive! Yeah, but honestly my collection is due for a trim one of these days.

Are the rest of the talented Haden clan spiritual, religious or otherwise? I'm mostly familiar with and own plenty of music by your dad but was never aware of any spiritual beliefs on his part... unless I wasn't reading all my old Downbeat magazines closely enough! I wasn't contemplating it or thinking he didn't have thoughts on the matter... it just isn't apparent in every person's music unless it's say Coltrane with "A Love Supreme" for example.

Hi Kevbo! Thanks for your comments! I stopped considering myself an Atheist when I realized that the God I believed in - Atheism - was limiting my abilities to learn more about myself and about the universe around me. I would posit that Atheism doesn't stand up to logic, but that's for another time and another post.

I can't speak for my other family members, but my father raised me to see the beauty in all things around me, and to never compromise my vision for the future.

Thanks again for the comments Kevbo, you have great taste in music!

No prob! Thanks for the compliment.

Yeah, with atheism/agnosticism, you have to keep thinking and learning and not let your disbelief or suspension of belief become thoughtless and merely a swap of one religion for another. It isn't for everyone.

As for iTunes, I'm rather noncommittal there, I only use it once every few months... One week I'm using Foobar 2000, next week WinAmp, then MediaMonkey, JetAudio, MediaPlayer etc. I can't settle for one I guess. Until my HD fills up...

what an interesting post, bless you

Thanks Steve!

As I understand it, the concept of "synchrony" in physics states that all time is actually static, and so we perceive its "forward" movement simply because we travel (in a sense) along a certain axis of it. In other words, all of time has already happened. So you may very well be correct about us not having free will. But on the other hand, possibly we do choose, relative to the dimension we experience, and perhaps we can only make choices (only "have made" choices), depending on our destiny, which is determined by our character (another paradox). In other words, perhaps we already chose our actions long ago (if we could see the dimension of time from its true, static perspective), based on the nature of our character. So once again it boils down to a strange kind of relativity, and a kind of mysticism: free will, yet no free will.

I believe I will never understand many things. (As Darwin said: "A man understanding God? A dog might well fathom the brain of Newton.") Just as a dog will never understand calculus, I will never truly grasp God, from a scientific perspective. But I often think life seems to work best when I exercise the least will.

So, often I ask that the world make its will manifest. It seems to ease the transition, since the world seems to know best, and will have its way regardless of my opinion!

Having said that, your iTunes shuffle is an interesting method of letting God make all the choices.

Well said Paul!

man this post made me dizzy.it is awesome.i too believe in a omniscient,omnipotent, omnibenevolent GOD. i am sure i have free will just because i commented in this post :) peace&love

Thanks Pimp!

And remember, "Free will isn't free!"

well-thought out philosophical position on what music you listen to but...if you believe that no one has free will and all is part of god's plan how do you know that god would not choose to have 'commercial' music be where he/she chooses to enlighten people? i mean think of the story of brian wilson hearing "be my baby" for the first time--how he had to pull over to the side of the road because he was so blown away. how is that not a religious experience?

if god is all-knowing and in control how could people bypass her/his plans by just trying to make music/art to make money, etc.?

(see all that philosophy grad school wasn't a complete waste...)

Thanks for the comment thill! I hope I didn’t make it seem like I think God distinguishes between ‘commercial’ and ‘non-commercial’ music. God, as a condition of being God, is far above such concerns.

In my opinion, God chooses different paths for different people. Some paths lead some people to music, others don’t.

Unfortunately we live in a society where all music is commercial, that is, unless, for example, a songwriter gives his or her music away for free. But then who could predict if the song given away for free wouldn’t end up on a compilation cd being sold for money on ebay?

Its true that I believe in the existence of God. I also believe in the existence of Satan. Satan, in Hebrew etymology, roughly translates to ‘adversary’, ‘accuser’, ‘calumniator’, ‘slanderer’. Let us examine the word ‘slander’. Webster’s New World Dictionary defines ‘slander’ as “the utterance in the presence of another person of a false statement or statements, damaging to a third person’s character or reputation.” Now let us look at the concept of money. A slanderer, it seems to me, would be somebody who would take a dollar bill and convince another person that the dollar bill can bring happiness and contentment far exceeding that which God could bring. A slanderer, in my opinion, would be one who would promote material, temporary, happiness over spiritual, eternal, happiness, thus steering humanity away from the values which make the continuation of life possible.

Perhaps Jesus said it best: “You cannot be the slave both of God and of money.” (Matt 6:24)

Thanks again thill!

Posted 4 minutes ago | Permalink | Delete

i understand that your concept of god would make him/her above such distinctions such as commercial/non-commercial.

i think there is a problem at the very base of a deterministic worldview. if you believe that there is no free will you are stuck in that deterministic framework.

on the one hand you say that we only listen to the music that god wants us to listen to but then you say later that you refuse to listen to any music made for the sole intention of placating the masses or making money. how can one refuse to do something in the deterministic framework?

part of your position is that one of the distinctions that you draw between types of music is the intention of the artist/producer/etc. again how can you have intentions in the d.f. ? INTENTION:

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English entencioun, from Old French intention, from Latin intenti , intentin-, from intentus, intent, from past participle of intendere, to direct attention ; see intend

SYNONYMS: intention , intent , purpose , goal , end , aim , object , objective

These nouns refer to what one plans to do or achieve.

how can one intend something if one is predetermined?

(you know this is teresa right?)

Thanks Teresa! Your concerns echo those posted by mogger Wanbli above. As I said to him, its true I did say I 'refuse' to listen to what I characterize as 'crap' music. But I never said I was successful in that refusal. I have to listen to all kinds of music I don't want to listen to. I'm surrounded by music everywhere I go, coming from other cars, in shopping malls, restaurants, etc. I'm not happy about it, but I'm not happy about a lot of things God puts me through. A 'belief' is not characterized by keeping all the things one likes about the belief, throwing away all the things one dislikes about the belief and then calling oneself 'devout'.

So, then, I use the word 'refusal' in a relative sense.

Please understand I use words like 'intention', when applied to myself, very loosely. I, or you, or anybody can say 'I decided to do this or that', but that doesn't negate the fact that, in my opinion, our lives have been predetermined long before any of us, or life as we know it itself for that matter, began.

So, what are the top ten most played songs in your religious playlist? I'm just trying to get a feel for God's musical taste.

I love the idea of listening to things that enlighten you except I choose to do it in a literary sense rather than a religious. Alot of the bands I listen to have inspiring lyrics or themes that coalite with my current emotions. Progressive rock is something that was introduced to me a few years back and from the moment I heard that one of the big "progressive rock" ideas was to incorporate story lines into an album, i fell in love. Literature is a passion of mine and the idea of mixing literary elmements and complex music into one was a dream come true for me.

I"m sorry I'm going off on a rant here...

It's a brilliant idea that you've come up with and I may just do it myself but replace "religious" with "progressive" =D

Thanks Nikki!

Check out this novel by Christopher Sorrentino Sound On Sound, I haven't read it yet but it looks like it combines literature and music in a really interesting way.