The 4th Amendment or Who's Smoking Dutch Cleanser ...

Posted over 4 years ago
Here's a quote from Senate Judiciary Chairman PA Republican Senator Arlen Specter. "In an interview with the Washington Post Feb. 7th 2006:":http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/06/AR2006020601463.html"If the lickspittle lawyer (I'm sorry for this folks, but he is refering to Alberto 'Seedy' Gonzales) thinks all this is legal, 'he's smoking Dutch Cleanser'":http://select.nytimes.com/2006/02/11/opinion/11dowd.html?_r=1&n=Top/Opinion/Editorials%20and%20Op-Ed/Op-Ed/Columnists/Maureen%20Dowd&oref=sloginThat's it in a nutshell, night folks.

You want more you say. Okay I'll give you more.Open your programs to the first page where the characters in this drama are listed.The US ConstitutionHR 3162 (aka Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001)AUMF (aka Authorization for Use of Military Force)President Bush US Attorney General John AshcroftGeneral Colin PowellThe US SenateThe US House of RepresentativesG. Robert BlakeyFISARICOFBINSACIAAnd Sept 11th.
This is our starting point (the 4th Amendment);*"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."*And here is Section 213 of HR 3162 (due to MOG formatting issues, I am forced to give you a link to the text);"*SEC. 213. AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT.*":http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/Section213.html
Yikes, right? Here is the important statement in Sec 213:*the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result*I will touch on this later.
There is no doubt in my mind, that in the days following Sept 11th our nation gathered behind our President to give him the support to do what we all felt needed to be done to bring the perpetrators of that heinous deed to justice. I admit I was one of them. Then on Sept 18, 2001 Congress passed the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) Joint Resolution giving the Admin. power to ask for the provisions in the US Patriot Act.Sen (D) Tom Dashle said of the AUMF and the Senates' rejection of a late change to the resolution;"this last minute change would have given the pres. broad authority to exercise expansive powers not just overseas - where we all understood he wanted to act - but right here in the United States, potentially against American citizens."Even Republican Senator Sam Brownback (KS) was concerned about AUMF (It's a linkable quote and a worthwhile story);"I do not agree with the legal basis on which [the Admin.] are basing their surveillance - that when the Congress gave the authorization to go to war that that gives sufficient legal basis for the surveillance":http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/dec/24/senator_bushs_spying_raises_concerns/?city_localIf you came here looking for proof that HR 3162 destroys civil liberties, I am afraid you will be disappointed. Instead I give you quotes and a feeling of general uneasiness about the Act.In fact there is a mountain of precedence that states otherwise. Warrantless searches have been going on for a long time. 35 on record for the year 1980. You just have to convince a Federal Judge you believe evidence will be destroyed by serving a warrant before the actual search. This is where the important statement about Sec 213. in HR 3162 comes into play. The highest courts have upheld numerous cases on the very precept contained in that clause, through many Administrations.I can hear you scratching your head.What I am saying is, they crafted a bill with Sections and Clauses that have already been tested by the courts. This just makes their case stronger should there be any challenges. The bees are out of the bag, who's going to put them all back?If you support the US Patriot Act, fine go ahead and support it. But please read the damn thing. If there are parts you don't understand, ask someone. If there are parts you don't agree with, tell someone. For heaven sakes it is only 342 pages long. The damn Bible is longer, not a much better read, and I can't tell you how many people have claimed to have "studied" that book. Further Reading:"HR 3162":http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html"A good Times article":http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20legal.html" Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts":http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1216-01.htm"Bush Secretly Lifted Some Limits on Spying in U.S. After 9/11, Officials Say":http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/CPC/NYT_15cnd-program.html"AUMF":http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/sjres23.es.html"G. Robert Blakey":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Robert_Blakey"RICO":http://www.fsu.edu/~crimdo/rico.html"Link to other Links":http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/ifissues/usapatriotact.htm

Comments (30)

  1. dachmo says What is the final intention here? What is this administration trying to do? On the night of November 7th 2000 I went to bed with the knowledge that GWB lost his bid for office. I wasn't that fond of AG but I followed my gut and gave him my vote. From the moment I opened my eyes on November 8th and turned on the news nothing made sense anymore and it's just escalated from that point forward. I really feel as if this is a bad horror movie and we're at that point in the story where the audience starts shouting out "Turn on the lights, you idiot! Turn on the freakin' lights!!" but we don't and we continue to walk down those dark basement stairs asking "Hello? Who's down there? ...Hello?"
    Permalink posted 09/22/2007
  2. I am says Dave, the plot thickens in act 2 of those elections. Check into the recent Kerry harassment in Florida. The kid was asking some questions about the 2004 election. See if you can find out the author and title of the book he was carrying with he got Tazed. I think the real horror is, that this plot will play out for along time. 10-12 years minimum.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  3. I am says You know, if there was one piece of advice I could offer, it would be this; Elect the people you trust to have your wellbeing in mind. Not because of party affiliation.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  4. dachmo says are you looking for the title or do you know it already?
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  5. dachmo says Uhhhh! My brain hurts. h3. Part 1 h3. Part 2
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  6. darmuzz says A few people are cleverly subverting the Patriot Act, like librarian/blogger Jessamyn West (whom I heard speak on Friday.) Quoting from an article about her in WIRED: (She is) on the front lines in battling the USA PATRIOT Act," particularly the provisions that allow warrantless searches of library records. The act not only prohibits libraries from notifying the subjects of such searches, it prohibits them from disclosing to the public whether any such searches have been made. In protest, West created a number of notices that libraries can post which she suggests are "technically legal." One of them, for example, reads: "The FBI has not been here. Watch very closely for the removal of this sign." The Vermont Library Association provided copies of this sign to every public library in Vermont.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  7. Lizziegreeneyes says Chris... even when we pick the lesser of two evils with regards to who will _*hopefully*_ have our best interests in mind *_&_* they win - they still might not make it to office... this is a fact that makes me terribly sad for this country. Speaking with friends overseas - we were all agast that 2004 brought us 4 more years... ebb & flow & all that shite, but seriously... So we have an act entitled "Patriot" & a day entitled "Patriot" but neither make me feel very patriotic !
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  8. meko says YOUR SERVINT BECOMES YOUR MASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  9. I am says I have to re-enter my response to dachmo's question about title and author. Something happened to my linked pic. It is Greg Palast and the title of the book is "Armed Madhouse".
    I would like to show you a great rebuttal towards pervasive surveillance and one heck of a way to exercise your 1st Amendment rights.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  10. dermahrk says Servant, meko... COULD the U.S. Government use the Patriot Act to spy on its own citizens who have absolutely nothing to do with terrorists? I suppose so. HAVE they? I think not. I can't recall any evidence coming to light that these powers have been abused. And, if they HAD been abused, the full power of the liberal media and MoveOn.org would be bleating to beat the band. We live in a democracy, with a free press, with perhaps 100 million citizens who would love to find examples of such abuse. Of course, if you descend far enough into paranoia you could see it as easy to hide... Is it a useful tool to actually try to apprehend terrorist attacks and prevent the murder of innocent americans. Yes, I think it is. And I would prefer that we err on the side of caution to try to protect this country. It's one of the government's main responsibilties. Might I point out that the Patriot Act came entirely through our system of government, which is ruled by the constitution? And that, if it is unconstitutional, it is the Supreme Court's place to strike it down? Also in the Constitution.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  11. meko says DERmahrk, Thier is so much that goes on in washington that if you knew all of it you would @!#@#$%%^$## And thats not all read the book BEHOLD THE PALE HORSE BY (WILLIAM COOPER. What your about to read is fact not fiction, You will be in shock!!!!!!
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  12. I am says Come on Mark, You haven't heard of this; "F.B.I. Head Admits Mistakes in Use of Security Act":http://nytimes.com/2007/03/10/washington/10fbi.html and extra reading; "DOJ report finds Patriot Act ripe for abuse":http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070312-doj-report-finds-patriot-act-ripe-for-abuse.html I agree with you Mark, about the Act being a tool, on the other hand I can't help but think about Lord Acton's quote; "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" The Republican trifecta (Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary) we had before the Dems took the house made it all to easy for the Pres. and Vice Pres. to get their way. It effectively broke the system of checks and balances that kept our country from spiraling into tyranny and fascism. We (you and me) gave 1 man all of the power he could ever want.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  13. I am says meko, You have to be kidding me. Are you seriously suggesting I read a book about UFO's, shadow societies, and the Drug War? What exactly do you think that will do to my credibility? Not much. I will read it for entertainment only and not use it as a source of factual information. The Drug War, now there's a post for the future. Great thing about that topic is I have first hand experience from my time in the service. As for "what goes on in Washington". I couldn't agree more. While looking for solid cases concerning the abuse of the Patriot Act, I often felt like my head would explode. Info overload to the nth power.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  14. dermahrk says Ok, I read both articles. Neither make your point. The FBI plead guilty to sloppy recordingkeeping. And "ripe for abuse" does not equal abuse. I could abuse my daughter. I don't do so. Again, you are arguing against methods to protect American lives based on a purely theoretical threat. 3,000 dead Americans are in no way theoretical. So your head exploded with solid cases? I have yet to see you produce one. Only theoretical ones.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  15. dermahrk says And the Republican "trifecta" was either legitimately elected by the American people or legitimately appointed by past and present Presidents. If the American public wants to throw them out, they can do so, or the next President can appoint their choices to the court. The system of checks and balances is not broken just because you don't agree with the results of the system.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  16. I am says Mark, I think the Times article is proof. What I don't have is proof of sloppy record keeping being a mistake or intentional. The second one from arstechnica isn't proof. I tossed that out there as a point to ponder. I don't think you read my post clearly. I stated that I didn't have solid proof. I even stated there are cases on the books supporting warrantless searches. I am trying to meet you half way. I may have worded my comment wrong but my post bears out my findings. As for elections, that's another story all together. We will see how the American people exercise their will in 2008.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  17. Cody B says To me it is all cock-fighting for the most power. Whoever has been in the executive branch has been trying to increase that branches power by any means necessary (fear,war,challenging patriotism). Why? More money for the folks who elected them. Clearly there isn't a whole lot of caring for regular folks, 'cause there is big money at stake. Them's that has the gold makes the rules or gets the people that makes the rules elected. It's the political embodiment of raw capatilism..
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  18. dermahrk says So you're afraid of sloppy record keeping and inefficiency? Welcome to government! The only ones that kept great records were the Germans, who seem to have recorded every Jew they gassed. I may not have read your post accurately. I think I was responding to the hue and cry I hear all the time from alarmists declaring that our rights HAVE been violated and our constitution stamped on. Is it something to watch and be concerned about? Yes. Is is more important than giving our inefficient, sloppy government the tools to try to stop terrorists who do NOT believe in the Geneva convention? No. Are you sick of me answering my own questions? Probably.... I don't mean to be aexcessively argumentative. I don't enjoy arguing about politics (like my skeletal friend). I don't really enjoy political posts. But sometimes I can't help but respond to what I consider to be unfair criticism of some of Bush's policies, followed by a lot of me-too group-think. I'm here to talk about music. Heard anything good lately? :-)
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  19. meko says Pigs three difrent ones from pink floyd, and this song is all about politics. Its on the animals cd.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  20. I am says Jimi Hendrix and the "Eyes and Imagination" album. Good stuff. Look above. I don't like arguing with Bush apologists who think it's okay to harass innocent folks for the sake of "possibility" and rampant fear mongering. I won't and you can't make me.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  21. I am says You know Mark, I would like to see proof that there *isn't* abuse or mishandling of the US Patriot Act. Where do I find this proof? Alright, so that's not true..... I do like to argue.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  22. dermahrk says Sigh...again, proof of harassing innocent folks is where? There is plenty of be afraid of. If not, then we're both fools. Proof that something DIDN'T happen? Come on. Ok, I'm done. Carry on if you wish. Have fun!
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  23. Dzendvokh says Great conversation, necessary I would even say. Just to throw another bone in. Has anyone here watched "Zeitgeist":http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ I was mesmerized by it last night till late. Now I am not promoting the view of this movie, indeed there is a lot to be skeptical about. And it is even a brilliant piece of propaganda film making itself. But, wow, it does its job. Left me with chills even. I have never been big on conspiracy theories, but on the other hand have always just assumed that there are many things hidden from view in the realms of power. So I would say I am open to many ideas, just not the type to get really worked up and obsessive over things. Maybe it is time to get worked up over things. So watch this film. And you judge for yourself.
    Permalink posted 09/23/2007
  24. contrabandwidth says I'll admit, I haven't read the articles yet. This is a very good post, with lots of good points. But I do feel that this essay by Naomi Wolf (author of The End of America) might aid in the discussion. Here's Ms. Wolf's 10 steps to Fascism. By my count we are at 9 out of 10. 1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy 2. Create a gulag 3. Develop a thug caste 4. Set up an internal surveillance system 5. Harass citizens' groups 6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release 7. Target key individuals 8. Control the press 9. Dissent equals treason 10. Suspend the rule of law
    Permalink posted 09/24/2007
  25. deadmandeadman says You're still at it? Geeze dude stop foaming at the mouth and give me the one example I asked for a long time ago: To Wit: How have YOUR rights been abridged by the various portions of the Patriot Act. You seem madly in love with the nebulous "they", who are nefarious, malicious, and just want to control everyone. I assume you know who's the brains (Oh yeah the wicked evil Dick Cheney, sorry, I forgot your pantheon of boogie men.) And of course the reason they're doing all these nasty things is.......what? Oil? This would be laughable but for the fact that so many are willing to suspend common sense in order to make this admin's actions match their own world view. Oh, and by the way: She is) on the front lines in battling the USA PATRIOT Act,” particularly the provisions that allow warrantless searches of library records. The act not only prohibits libraries from notifying the subjects of such searches, it prohibits them from disclosing to the public whether any such searches have been made" I'd prosecute under the RICO laws. (a dem favorite)
    Permalink posted 09/27/2007
  26. contrabandwidth says From
    Permalink posted 09/27/2007
  27. I am says I don't get it. "Foaming at the mouth", "they". I guess all of the big words in my post put you off to reading it. I did not once use the word "they". if I did in comments we can all assume it means the Admin. but I may have used it contextually. Foaming at the mouth. Only to folks who think that their daily dose of "Misinformation" from Rush "Drug Abusing Fat Bastard Lying Ass SOB" Limbaugh and Bill "Who Needs Credibility" OReilly is a substitute for actually sitting down and reading the damn thing (Yes I mean the Constitution, yes I mean the Patriot act, yes I mean the Bible, yes I mean the Federalist Papers, .... you get the idea.) Like I said Jeff, (please read my post this time) I could not find real proof of violation, in fact I gave proof that warrantless searches have a history of precedent.. And honestly, how could I. If Congressional members and Senate members have no idea, how can you reasonably expect me to find proof. Why don't you show me proof that the Patriot Act is working to curb terrorism. Show me the names of the terrorist the Patriot Act stopped from doing their dirty deeds. Give a list of the cities terrorism was stopped in from say 2002 to 2006. Prove to me that the Act is really in our best interests. I bet you can't, or you just won't. Thanks Tyler, the article shows there are some in the judicary that actually care about the rule of law and not about being a toad for the government.
    Permalink posted 09/27/2007
  28. deadmandeadman says In 21st century America, where "the leak", from "unnamed government souces" has become a tool of politics for both sides, where outright treason is hailed as freedom of the press, where ideology trumps all, including and especialy national security and common sense, governing is a high-wire act. Are there abuses of power arising from functionaries with personnal agendas? Of course! And as dermahrk has pointed out, entities such as the NY TIMES or moveon.org spend countless dollars promoting (oops, "reporting") these stories and each has proven that its not above manufacturing mountains out of molehills. (Alberto take a bow). I have three questions for any who care to answer.... IS THERE a war on terror? Is Iraq a campaign in the war, if it exists? Will we be safer as a nation as the result of a unilateral withdrawal of Allied troops?
    Permalink posted 09/27/2007
  29. contrabandwidth says Obviously for some, deadman, "truthiness" abounds... I would like to quote David Byrne's take on the war, he was able to sum up how I have been feeling, but unable to express: "So, Bush and Cheney's General plays Westmoreland and says, "There's light at the end of the tunnel." What did anyone think he was going to say? Get the hell out? He's as full of shit as Westmoreland was about Vietnam, and so is Bush for claiming that if we leave there will be havoc like in Cambodia. The US brought the Khmer Rouge and the killing fields into existence with Kissinger's illegal bombing raids. They didn't simply erupt because the US was no longer "keeping the peace." Somebody needs to be called for this bullshit. Here's my argument. Nothing much could be worse for Iraq than the US presence. Their superstructure has been destroyed, and left unrepaired. There is civil war. Their own oil isn’t bringing in money for them. So how could it be worse if we leave? It can't, really. Some folks are saying we broke it we should fix it. Tell that to someone who comes into your house and smashes all the furniture. That’s not the repairperson I would call. You might want to sue them, or kill them, or have them thrown in jail, but you don’t want them in your house ever again. It's time to shamefully get the hell out before the incompetents in the Bush government make it even worse. These guys can’t fix or manage anything. I believe they will make it worse, given the chance. And the US media is giving them one by taking this General even a little bit seriously. He's a sock puppet and a liar; everything he says is bullshit."
    Permalink posted 09/28/2007
  30. deadmandeadman says To quote Homer Simpson...."AH, Rock Stars, is there anything they don't know? (Thanks Ivylander) I would expect such squishy headed drivel from Mr Byrne, after all the extensive research he's done on the matter. The absolute Hubris of his bold assertion that the average Iraqi doesn't know who's blowing things up and who's building things is so laughably ridiculous! C'mon! The guy is a talented musician, his opinions are respected, in that he gets to spew them, after all, everyone's entitled to an opinion. But they're not entitled to their own facts. That he's a flaming Bush-basher is nothing new, that he spews his bilge is so daring and bold! Bleating in the herd is very popular for the know-nothing-but-hatred crowd. Anyone who will look you in the eyes and assert that Iraq is better off without help is either lying or incredibly naive, probably both.
    Permalink posted 09/28/2007

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