If Talking To Them Doesn't Work or Zzzzzzttt, Zzzzzzt, POP ....

I am

If Talking To Them Doesn't Work or Zzzzzzttt, Zzzzzzt, POP ....

Posted over 2 years ago

Artist:
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David Bowie
Album:
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Hunky Dory
Track:
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Kooks

That's the sound I hear from most conservative braincases who like to think they have me figured out. That sound happens right after I tell them my views on the Second Amendment.

I know what you may be thinking, "But Chris, You talked about freedom of religion and free speech, What happened to Freedom of the Press? Are you chicken?" No, I am not afraid to express my views and listen to opposing opinions. I just want to move on to something else. There are 27 Amendments (most of them make for dull copy) and I would like to get to the good ones before I am to old to remember what I said about the First Amendment. On with the circus. Oh yeah, be civil and try to stay on topic.Guns, Guns, and more Guns. What do you think of when you read these words:*A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.*It's a two headed beast. Give the public the means to protect itself or arm a potential rebellion. If I were President, what would I do? I guess I could play the odds. I might risk the rebellion and hope that by arming the citizenry, I may have enough supporters to see the country through a time of war. A possible war, nothing specific, just possible.This Amendment and me ..... lets just say it's a love/hate relationship.I love to shoot them. It really is a feeling of empowerment. I have been around guns my whole life. If I were to kind of break down my feelings about guns it would be this:Guns are tools and ..... entertainment.My hate of them stems from a fear that someone I know might be harmed by a gun. I am sure as I am sitting here, if anyone I was close to, was to be harmed by a gun I would change my opinion a hundred and eighty degrees. So, what do I do?I guess I could play the odds. Now the risk is on losing my tools and .... entertainment. For the safety of my family and friends. What would you do?I offer this as a thought.There is no law the American government can make that will completely remove the threat of gun violence. It just won't happen. No futher reading tonite folks. This is a "come as you are" affair. Let me know what you think.

Comments (21)

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Jonh Ingham says 1. A good friend was murdered by some young punk doing his gang initiation. I hate guns. 2. Laws become obsolete. Because times and situations change. 3. Grown up people sort things out by reason and debate. But for that you need education. 4. Some dictators only understand force and power.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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I am says You hate guns. But you understand the dichotomy. Would I be wrong by saying, Grief and passion on one side and fear and passion on the other?

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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Jonh Ingham says that's a good summary.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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deadmandeadman says Any citizen in good standing should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon at all times. (with certain exceptions, of course). In EVERY state where such a law has been passed violent crime plummets. This is irrefutable.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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Jonh Ingham says In the UK, historically, no-one carried guns. In 1976 there were 15 murders. This was a high number - most years were less. Starting in the 90s the criminal gangs started importing handguns along with the drugs. The murder rate climbed exponentially until now there's hundreds a year. Many of these are innocent bystanders caught in crossfire. So you're telling me that if these innocents (good citizens) had guns of their own, the violence would be less?

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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deadmandeadman says Perhaps. If the thugs knew everyone was armed, maybe they'd be a little less willing to start shit. Admittedly in the scenario you suggest (innocents in the crossfire) having a gun wouldn't be of much help. But if I'm sitting in my favorite McDonalds and someone who's silicone chip inside their head just switched to overload, I would like the chance to defend myself, and others, no? If the mugger in the alley knew I was just as likely to be armed as he....?

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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annieander says I can understand the conflict. I was once asked this question...Would you put a sign outside of your house that said..."There are no guns in this house!"? I understand the point he was trying to make. Eventhough I don't have a gun, I am using the possibility of gun ownership, them not knowing if I own, to deter crime. Uncertainty can only exsist with the right to bare arms. One point I am clear about...no one needs an assult weapon to protect home and hearth, or to shoot beasties.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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I am says That is a great point annie. Fear of the unknown as a deterrent. I am with you on your comment 'bout BIG guns. Alot of rhetoric stems from fear. deadmans comment is just as valid. Though I would like to see some numbers (and not the kind supplied by the NRA). As for Jonh, his mind is made up. That's for certain. It is as I said above, were I in that situation I think I would be solidly in his camp.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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annieander says I'm glad you are posting these. I did read your other amendment post, but felt to late on the string to make a significant difference. Good for you for exploring these subjects. I agree with what Jonh says in so far as once effected by violence, ones views will always change. My feelings come from a sympathetic view, not a empathetic one.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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dondeluxe says As much as I dislike 311...I believe they said it best with the song Guns are for Pussies. Later, Don

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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dondeluxe says I would like to add that I do not believe in gun prohibition. I grew up around guns, hunted several times a year (boar, whitewing and yes bambi), and even had a handgun when I first got married. But I now with kids, I feel the risk outweight the benefit. I've thought my wife how to fire a shotgun and we keep one hidden under lock and key (since I travel quite a bit). But I don't think I'll ever have another pistol in my house. I do however have a stun gun stashed in the pad and a "persuasion stick" close to my bed. But yeah it's alotta fun to hold a big hunk of metal in yr hand and spit out colored flame. later, don in TexAss

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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contrabandwidth says I was car jacked once. I had a Toyota Previa, a larger Mini van. The guys who took my car came around the back with a gun pointed at my face. I have enjoyed shooting guns, but never owned one. I am not a gun person. After being robbed people would ask me, "don't you wish you had a gun that day?" I always answer, no. I realize from countless westerns (and I'm not much of a "western" person either), you can't beat the guy who has the draw on you. I would have lost in a shoot out. All I could think of was where the bullet was going to enter my body, and whether or not I could survive it. I wanted to leave the situation with my life, and give them what they wanted. It would not have mattered if I was armed, and if I had been, they would have taken my gun from me, and someone else could have been harmed by it - a guilt I would have a hard time living with. Most people, unfortunately, who own guns do not practice the proper discipline of owning a gun (practice, maintenance and care of said gun). People who are related to that gun owner are more likely to be injured by that gun, or another innocent bystander if the gun is subject to theft. Am I anti-gun? No, I think they have their place. Do I think guns are way to easy to obtain? Yes. You can't legislate ignorance, laziness or stupidity, but you can put all of those qualities into office. There is not a perfect solution, but I do think the harm done by guns is inherently more complicated than the simplistic rational that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" or "Gun control means hitting your target". Because people hide behind the symbolism of power that the gun represents, and fail to respect it as a tool or weapon, others invariable (the innocent, mostly) will get hurt.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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dharmachris says I want to see the research supporting the correlation b/w concealed carry permission and crime decreases. Here's why: I'm thinking that of all the gun violence in Philly this year (we set a new record which is out of control and no one seems to care), all the people who got shot and killed live in areas where concealed carry is the de facto reality. And I'm thinking that where I live in nice suburban Chester county, the biggest crime seems to be teenagers stealing cases of beer from unlocked garages. Contra, nice post. I agree. I grew up around hunting, have fired rifles, handguns, and machine guns. It is empowering, and enjoyable. Firing an M60 machinegun with tracer bullets at night was like creating my own little Fourth of July. But I have never shot at anything living and don't intend to do so. If someone wants to own hunting rifles, bows, shotguns, for sporting, I'm fine with it, and I invite bow hunters to my backyard to take care of the overpopulated deer in the area. Heck,if you want to keep a shotgun in the house to keep the bad guys at bay, go for it. And if it helps allay your fears about the government, well, OK. Just be responsible and lock up the weapons. We have rules limiting who can drive cars, we should have rules regulating weapons that have the sole purpose of killing other humans. What troubles me are things like the PA state house combats local bills that would limit gun purchases to one per month, to prevent so-called 'straw man' purchases. (Republicans are all about local control in government until it's something they disagree with.) See Philly Inquirer article here: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20070503_City_to_sue_state_over_gun_inaction.html

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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dharmachris says Oops, i forgot to edit and add: Here’s why: I’m thinking that of all the gun violence in Philly this year (we set a new record which is out of control and no one seems to care), all the people who got shot and killed live in areas where concealed carry is the de facto reality. And I’m thinking that where I live in nice suburban Chester county, the biggest crime seems to be teenagers stealing cases of beer from unlocked garages. I'm pretty certain that the soccer mom in the minivan does not carry a concealed weapon.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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contrabandwidth says I grew up in Chester County, and was probably responsible for some of that stolen beer. I would like to also point people to a wonderful argument about crime rates and abortion in the book ??Freakonomics?? by Steven Levitt (? could be wrong about the author, but don't have time to look it up). Basically all through the 80's, crime was going up, and was supposed to sky rocket in the 90's, but it didn't. Instead it went down, and kept going down. the author correlates the beginning of this downward slope to the accessibility and availability of abortions. Basically all the children that would have come of age to perpetrate these crimes in the 90's simply were not born. Therefore the crime rate went down. Perhaps this upswing in crime rates can be tied to the militant anti-abortion sentiment that began happening in the 90's (bombings of clinics, harrasement, etc.) that made people not feel safe or anonymous if they chose to get an abortion, therefore more "unwanted" pregnancies were had out of guilt and people feeling like criminals for wanting to get a legal abortion. I'm making it sound simpler than stated in the book, but there is a certain logic to this argument, no matter how crass it may sound. I would highly recommend the book to anyone, it will challenge your thinking more than you ever thought possible.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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doombilly says The school year just started and three kids have been caught with guns in Charlotte. The last was a 4th grader...who live with his 21 yr old cousin. And the rules the school board has put in place, they can't even expel them. And if they kill my kid by mistake, or just because they are stupid or evil or both they won't even have a criminal record when they become 18. Something's fucking wrong here.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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dharmachris says contra, I've heard Freakonomics is a very interesting read. The question I always have when I read of those sorts of relationships (and maybe the book addresses it) is this: does correlation translate into causality? ie, there is a correlation b/w abortion rates and crime, but does a change in abortion rate drive crime rates up or down? Guns were confiscated at or near 13 Philadelphia schools last year, and four students were arrested in schools for weapons charges, according to the PA dangerous schools list, which is a federally required annual report. Go to: http://www.pde.state.pa.us/svcs_students/cwp/view.asp?a=175&Q=95273 The only schools in the state that made the list this year are in the City of Brotherly Love. And the overall number is going down. Weapons with young kids is always a tough call.. Expelling a 9 year old is a hard call, especially when there is a decent chance this kid's uncle is more to blame. And my guess is your board has a process of risk assessment for the student with the weapon to help the decision. Columbine changed everything.

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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Lizziegreeneyes says Not a fan of guns or gun violence... the question kinda reminds me of my views on capital punishment. Not a fan - not my place to take someone else's life - don't think it should be anyone's. When I state this, I've heard countless times... "lizzieg, what if they raped & murdered your family, best friend & left you for dead; what if it was your child who was murdered ?...". Sure, I could say that I am certain my views wouldn't change, truth is, I don't. I am thankful for that everyday. I do +believe+; however, that my views wouldn't change. It's a part of who I am. All about the making love - totally against the making war ;) In all seriousness though - personal guns (concealed or at home) I really don't agree with that being ok. Hunting, sport - fine. It was a different world when it was written, as you stated. It could be argued with violence as prevalent as it is today there is still a need. I don't see it. Violence begets violence. My Da used to keep a gun in the house - in a locked box in a foot locker in the basement. How it would have protected us if we had been burgled - that is a feat even Superman would have had a hard time accomplishing. Talked with my Mum bout it once a few years back & she informed me that she had him get rid of it a long time ago. *Chris:* if you post about capital punishment - feel free to recycle my thoughts :)

Permalink posted 09/15/2007
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doombilly says
"my guess is your board has a process of risk assessment for the student with the weapon to help the decision. Columbine changed everything."/i>
You guess would be incorrect. We have a number of students that have assaulted teachers, committed rape, and carry weapons to school and they are routinely allowed to remain in the student population. The most they've done is lip-service to "looking at alternatives."

Permalink posted 09/18/2007
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Doomsayer2001 says I don't know what movie it was from, but this quote from the movie always stuck with me (I think it was even a comedy, but I'm not certain) "Guns don't kill people, I do." A gun is a tool, just like a brick or a knife or a car or a tire thumper or whatever, placed into the wrong hands and for the wrong reasons, it can have a devastating impact. Used correctly and with the loving hands of a professional, it can do what it's intended to do.

Permalink posted 09/18/2007
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contrabandwidth says I don't know if anyone is still checking this post, but the Freakonomics article I was talking about can be d/l'ed as a PDF at the New York Times a Permalink posted 09/20/2007