Not that hip hop needs my help, it does fine without me. But, for the sake of this exercise and in response to the captain of the H.M.S Rock, Zarpex, I submit my case for the continued relevance of hip hop. First some background- ►Hip Hop 101 on MOG ◄ ►The Post that piqued the interest of Zarpex ►Zarpex’s post on hip hop ◄ ►My personal take on the roots of hip hop ◄
For those not wanting to take in all the background, here’s a key quote from Zarpex.
And Cody. Dear Cody. No rippling broadside, no hail of arrows, no nuclear blast, no alien death ray will ever harm rock. When rock dies, it will be from a short blade inserted tenderly into just the right spot between its ribs - probably by someone who loves it. Like you. Your watchdog vigilance for it, and your almost unerring sense of where to focus, are the stuff of my nightmares. "Hall of Fame"? Ouch. "No longer the voice of rebellion and youth"? Ouch. "The sacred withered music"? Ouch. You overreach, however, when you say of rap that "It is the music of the future, with more innovations in a year of releases, than Rock has had in the past 30 years." I can conceive of preferring rap to rock, but not if innovation is a factor. Let's hear, say, five rap songs about self-doubt, personal failure, or heartache; let's hear five of them in a tricky time signature, let's hear five to which you could attach the description "haunting" with a straight face. But in the meantime, look for me pacing the quarterdeck of the H.M.S. Rock - I have removed my tricorner hat in salute, and I can feel blood squishing between my toes with every step.
I don’t think I need to play by Zarpex’s rules of innovation (tricky time signatures,topics of self doubt, personal failure, heartache, or hauntedness), though I will provide some examples. Zarpex also has a complaint about the name hip hop, saying..” Rap (when and why did people start calling it "hip hop"?)”, so a definition is in order. (From Wikipedia)
Hip hop (also spelled hip-hop or hiphop) is both a cultural movement and a genre of music developed in New York City in the 1970s by African Americans and Latinos. Since first emerging in The Bronx and Harlem,the lifestyle of hip hop culture has today spread around the world. Hip hop culture includes breakdancing (a street dance style done over funk or hip hop music rhythm breaks), graffiti (also known as 'writing'), rapping, beat-boxing and hip-hop fashion (a style of dress). When hip hop music developed in the 1970s, it was originally based around DJs who created rhythmic beats by "scratching" with record players, and "rapping" (a rhythmic style of chanting).
Zarpex insists that the music portion of hip hop be separated from its’ larger social context, which you really can’t do. As for innovation, hip hop has brought at least 3 singular innovations that have influenced music, dance, and art around the world.
1)Turntablism Please check out this brief sequence from the film “Wild Style”
The use of turntables and vinyl as an instrument, which is now ubiquitous, was an innovation of hip hop culture. The elevation of this new art form has created a DJ culture which has arguably been on the cutting edge of pop music’s growth around the world. Check out Q-bert in this scene from the movie, “Scratch”
2) Sampling Hip Hop didn’t invent audio editing or sampling technology, but it did bring it directly into the mainstream of popular culture. Sampling is sometimes looked down upon as stealing, but in reality it is more on a par with directions in the avant garde. Dense sound collages, as created by The Bomb Squad for Public Enemy, brought a new realm of sonic innovation to popular music.
3)Hip Hop Dance Break dancing, uprocking, popping , and locking have gone beyond their New York roots to become a worldwide influence on street culture, as well as high culture, with highly trained modern dance scholars integrating hip hop styles into their pieces. Check out this interview with Chuck Ahern the director of the film Wild Style.
I’m not going to go into the influence of hip hop fashion and graffiti writing on world culture, because I think that is ubiquitous enough for anyone to see, even if one is riding in steerage on the H.M.S Rock. Like many folks including those raised on Hip Hop like Nas, there is a feeling of stagnation in the art. The commercialization of the music, dance, and culture of Hip hop seems to have sucked some of the vibrant nature out of the scene. Still though, Hip Hop continues to grow as a worldwide movement, giving a voice to folks that we might never hear, if it weren’t for a select few kids in the Bronx around 30 years ago.
From the music side I’ve compiled this Cd length playlist to answer some of Zarpex’s Questions, provide signposts to past innovations in hip hop, and show evidence of the vibrancy and influence of the sound of hip hop.
Before we get to the playlist..The posted song is, Not Over You by Basehead. This one goes out to Zarpex for the self-doubt, personal failure, or heartache requirement.
1.Public Enemy-Rebel Without A Pause (1989). Socially , politically, and sonically relevant . A sampling tour de force. NME (7/15/95, p.47) - 10 (out of 10) - "...the greatest hip-hop album ever....this wasn't merely a sonic triumph. This was also where Chuck wrote a fistful of lyrics that promoted him to the position of foremost commentator/documentor of life in the underbelly of the USA.
2.Ultramagnetic MC’s- Ease back (1985). Lyrical and Sonic Invention..Heading toward the sonic collage of Public Enemy, but maintaining the two turntable loop style.
3.The Roots-Long Time (2006) . The Roots are sonic innovators, using live instrumentation seamlessly with sampling and hip hop Dj techniques, not to mention Black Thought’s lyrical clarity and dexterity.
4.The Last Poets- Jones Comin’ Down. (1970) Haunting to some and clearly falling under self-doubt, personal failure, and heartache category. One strain of the roots of hip hop, poetry and drums.
5.Onra- Relax in Mui Ne (2007). A sampling tour de force, coaxing hip hop rhythms out of traditional Vietnamese sounds. Haunting?
6.De La Soul – Millie Pulled A Pistol On Santa (1991). Child Abuse addressed (possibly haunting)going toward the heartache requirement.
7.Common (Sense)- I Used to Love H.E.R. (1994). The history of hip hop told with a metaphor about a relationship. Heartache.
8.Blackalicious-Alphabet Aerobics (1999). A serious play on words.
9.Eric B & Rakim- Follow The Leader (1988). Rakim was the first “modern” rapper. Erik B and Rakim were among the first hip hop artists to release records with samples.
10.Nas – New York State Of Mind (1994). One of the first great rappers from the generation raised in the hip hop era.
11.X plaztaz- Kuteeza Kwa Zamu (2004). Tanzanian hip hop. Giving voice to social issues in Africa.
12.Karmacoma – Massive Attack (1994). Trip Hop is the phrase coined to describe music that arose in the late 80’s/early 90’s in England. An innovation/expansion on the hip hop sound, that also looked back to one of the roots of hip hop for influence..Jamaican dub. Jamaican toasting or chanting over dub reggae rhythms is also part of the roots of rap. Haunting/heartbreak?
13.The Streets- Turn the Page (2002)- Another hip hop offshoot , UK Garage with rapper producer Mike Skinner. Self Doubt, Personal failure?
14.DJ Shadow- Midnight In A Perfect World (1996)- Instumental hip hop and sampling tour de force. Haunting.
15.Dr.Octagon- Blue Flowers (1996) Dan the Automator’s groundbreaking production and classic Ultramagnetic MC’s rapper Kool Keith combine on this abstract and haunting piece.
16.Divine Styler – Aura (1992). In 1989 Divine Styler released a good, but standard sounding hip hop record, in 1992 he went off the charts into experimental sounds and self exploration.
17.Dalek – Trampled Breatheren (2002) Sonically very adventurous, producer Oktopus and MC Dälek bring an industrial edge to the music. Not your grandfathers hip hop, but here’s what they said about their sound,” If there is a difference. It's that the palette of sounds we work with is more varied than what has been called hip- hop in the last 10 years. Somehow, as hip-hop grew, it's been put into this box. I think it's funny when people are like, 'That's not hip-hop. It's this and this and this.' You can try to rationalize it as whatever you want to rationalize it as."
18.Burial- U Hurt Me (2006). Dubstep is the hybrid of a hybrid name given to the genre this anonymous artist works in, but the hip hop influences (especially the aspect of DJ/Producer culture) are there. Haunting.
19.Saul Williams – Twice The First Time (1997). Modern production combined with the truth and power of the Last Poets.
20.J Dilla – Waves (2006). Some of the last work of the producer extraordinaire before his untimely death. The circumstance and the groove, haunting.
At one time the music known as Rock was a major unifying cultural force, but it simply does not wield that kind of power any more. That is not to say that there isn’t any good new music in the hold of the H.MS. Rock. I am a witness to quite a bit of that goodness on a daily basis as I scan the interwebs, reading the missives of Moggers, Multipliers, and, of course, the ships mog of captain Zarpex.
There’s no music that is dead or dying here, but despite calls for its demise from the captain himself, hip hop is here, fully alive, just waiting to embrace the captain when he’s ready to jump ship. I’m sure that isn’t going to happen, so I guess we will just end up agreeing to disagree.
Peace.
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We'll just call you Schooly C from now on.....
Love that doc Scratch.... I definitely recommend it to anyone who thinks that turntablism is not art or that turntables are not instruments.
That's a pretty strong list there Cody.... thanks for breakn it down for us.
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Thanks for that dz..I hope everybody that wants to will throw in their faves as well.
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I guess that falls into the "not your typical fare" camp .. ;-)
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five rap songs about self-doubt, personal failure, or heartache; let's hear five of them in a tricky time signature, let's hear five to which you could attach the description "haunting" with a straight face.
Sage Francis- Personal Journals
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That's what i'm talkin bout..Thanks UGreg..
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Great post dude... love it
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what a great post man! i am not very hip hop astute and i mostly stick with old school stuff, though i love the Roots, the late, great J Dilla( thanks to hyman) and blackalicious. though i am always looking for new great stuff, cuz i know there is a tom out there i am out to lunch on........ thanks for this
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My piece in brief. Hip hip hop is consistently innovative and frankly does more shockingly sonic things than rock. Rock has really been more of a co-optive force, swallowing influences to satisfy the need to sustain its relevancy. But nothing is original, however I think we can say without a doubt that hip-hop has influenced rock more than rack has influenced hip-hop over the past 25 years.
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Two people I would not want to trade verbal blows with, you and Zar. You guys would put me to shame.
Honestly, I got to print these posts and get a highlighter to follow along.
Well played Cody. I'll be back with something ...
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Rock and hip hop (and a whole bunch of genres besides - reggae coming to mind immediately) exist on two planes: as music and as cultural influence. As music, there's some good new stuff in both genres, but I don't hear much that's truly innovative coming from either camp. I can enjoy new music, rock or hip hop, but it isn't surprising me nowadays. And that's where the cultural influence part comes in - musical genres seem to have a way of starting out as laboratories for innovation and slowly morphing into...rallying places for various tribes, I guess. Maybe that's why I'm spending so much time in the musical past of late. Not out of "nostalgia," but because the resonances seem stronger, first-hand, because the music sounds as if it has been created primarily for musical and not social purposes. Maybe any genre has begun the downhill segment of its arc when people start talking about its "relevance" and viewing it in terms of "the culture." I guess I think that the real "music of the future" hasn't arrived yet. But I'm pretty sure we'll know it when we hear it.
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hot... DAYUM my brotha man... brilliantly put... I would take your class any time, it's not class it's LEARNIN & you don't stop with that bang bang boogie ;)
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I hate to sound too much like a teacher, LGE, but this was an exercise, and it was supposed to be fun. I would find it a little harder to argue the other side, but I'm sure it is more than doable. And while I bust Zarpex's chops about The Rock n'Roll Hall Of Fame, the Hip Hop Hall Of Fame is not all that far behind.
Steve and Frost, I'm probably the worst representative of the new hip hop, because I am so Old School..at this point I'm Pre-School.
Oat,One thing I will say about Hip Hop..there is very little looking back. It is almost always forward.
Chris, you know I love this stuff..Anything to keep me from real research papers.
Aaaah, Mr.Lander. I see what you are saying and you know I'm predelicted toward the ancient in music, always looking to replicate that suprise of the empirical experience. Looking for the perfect beat is my business. Nice one, I didn't know you and Nas had so much in common.
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Trust me, you're a teacher in the best sense Cody - totally meant as a compliment - I learn something from each of your posts & am the wiser & better for it :)
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Yeah Cody, you gotta push the edge or you will be left behind.
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I'll be the first to admit, I know pretty much next to nothing about hip-hop. I've owned exactly two rap albums in my day. One was by a Christian rapper named Michael Peace, and the other was The Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy (which I still like quite a bit, honestly). Having said that, though, I have to say I'm falling into Zar's camp on this one. And I'll grant that it's more out of ignorance than anything else. But as an outsider, all I ever hear from the hip hop camp is exactly how many bitches have been nailed, how many people will be shot on a given night, and how some rapper is cooler than some other rapper. Often because of which side of the country they live on (seriously, WTF? Who gives a ratshit?).
As far as innovation, I can't necessarily defend the state of rock these days, either, but I do know that the three innovations you mentioned above all happened early on, where it seemed to me Zar was trying to say that there's nothing new happening now. I can't say, as I don't know.
I think it all boils down to taste, and you'lre going to defend what you love, plain and simple. I just don't "get" hip hop, honestly. Occasionally I like a beat, I like how the music sounds, but once the vocals start I find myself losing interest very quickly.
Oh. I don't know if he qualifies as hip hop, per se, but I do like Tricky a great deal.
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LGE, thanks so much.
I also wanna say that prior to putting this post together I polled some friends and family for tunes they thought would fit Zarpex's profile. If you are a multiply user you can checkout that thread here ◄
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oh man. this is an epic battle that has had me entertained for some time now. and in the end, if i could have anyone defend the honor of HH with a shield and broad sword, it would be you cody. oooo i smell a movie... but just out of curiosity, how do you take the title of Nas's 2006 album "hip hop is dead" ??
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That's cool Groonie..I think you are right. If something doesn't sound good to ya, no smart alecks term paper is gonna change your mind.
The thing about those initial innovations, is that they we're truly brand spankin' new. I'm not saying I know, but does Rock have any innovations of that order?
Anyway, if you can put your hands to this playlist, there are no "how many bitches have been nailed" songs:) Thanks to Captain Z, there are plenty of haunting songs, with a touch of heartbreak.
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BTW Cody, I had not heard Basehead in forever, thanks.
While the common subject matter for rap that is pushed by the big labels is dark and distasteful for me, vice is part of the culture as well, and that does not make it dead, but addiction and illusory pleasure is certainly not exclusive and is most definitely a part of RAWK!
Here's one on the culturally reflective tip... The PerceptionistsMy Trusted MOGs
Sam, In a lot of ways, including mentioning it in one of these comments to Cap. Z., Nas has a point, and I believe that is what Z, and Ivy, and Groon refer to when they talk about the overground view of hip hop. It is funny to think that Nas was once underground. I believe he's just trying to light a fire under his contemporaries and himself. Like Ivy says, you stick around long enough your arc starts pointing down. Nas is feeling that and fighting it.
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I will definitely check out that playlist. I'd like to think I have an open mind, if nothing else.
As far as innovations go, I guess you have to decide what's an innovation. I think rock has been innovative in the sense that it's such a wide open style that can incorporate anything. I mean, you name it, it's been blended with rock: folk, classical, jazz, rap, funk, electronic, whatever. It's like the universal solvent of music, I guess you could say. If you broaden your terms to include things like metal and punk you have innovations that influenced entire generations of culture. And while I think an excellent and true point was made about rap having more influence on rock than vice versa, I don't think that negates rock, when you consider the other genres its had an influence on. I mean, rock has had more influence on country than rap has, so doesn't that mean just as much?
And while you'll never hear it on the radio, there are new things coming out in the world of rock still to this day. For example, the last ten years or so have seen the rise of a completely new sound called "post rock" with bands such as Godspeed! You Black Emperor, Explosions in the Sky, and the usual round of quasi copycats that follow. It might have ties to things that have gone on before but it's still a new movement in rock.
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No problem Amiel, thanks for the track..Dachmo did a post on Basehead recently.
Common (when he was still-Sense) - I Used to Love H.E.R.
.......Looks like Common was worried about hip hop's future in '94
The Mix on the M
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well i heard that he was talking about the lack of creativity in most southern styles of rap. crunk/snap, you know, what conquers mtv and the radio now. and i partially agree. i cant stand the lackluster rhymes *cough cough soulja boy or beats *ahem collipark, who make maj guac from it. and i notice that you dont particularly post that kind of stuff, so.. i guess what im trying to say is, i know quality hip hop is still being made, and people have convinced me that i just have to search for it. and thats sad that i have to search for it, and its not just there. well, i mean you always have to dig for good tuneskis, but i often find myself passing on more than i approve of. or maybe im just getting old. HOLLY CRAP, IM OLD. DAMNED KIDS. idk.
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Hokey Smokes, man did this take off.
Why is 'Poets" the oldest and then nothing till the 90's?
Where is Flash, for gods sake UTFO. You turned your back on the 80's and 90's, didn't you?
Pickin' brain that's all, no malice, fake or otherwise,.
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Great post my friend, and I appreciate the fact that you shared the homework on it with everybody.
What comes to mind is Creationism vs. Evolution; I don't agree entirely with either of you and I'd like to think that my "arc" is still pointing upward :)
Music does not live or die, it evolves, culturally and independently of the artists that form it. Rock broken down into it's respective parts is still as unifying a force as it ever was, as is hip hop if indeed music can ever really be a "unifying force", I'm not sure it can be. There was a time back in the late '70's when some of us wished for the demise of a certain musical form, it never died, it evolved, showering it's influence over all future artists and genres, for better and worse. just thinking aloud here...
Mog On and Mog More
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have to add this little ditty, it's not rap or rock really, just a little something Hunter wrote awhile ago.
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iodapril post from May of last year. Turntabalism, the Birdy Nam Nam's got your turntabalism and then some.
Let me start by giving some props to Z and Cody for engaging this debate wholeheartedly but without some of the acidic snark that often seems to creep into these sorts of online affairs. It's a fun exchange and I've got a lilttle something to throw into the mix, but first can somebody tell me how to upload an mp3 to a comment (rather than a fresh post) here at MOG???
Cody mentions The Roots and I think if anyone can be an effective standard-bearer for Hip-Hop it is they. I have to put the spotlight on "Act Too..the Love of My Life" (from _Things Fall Apart_) their paean to the genre and it's role in their lives. The groove is definitely there as is some graphic language, but all delivered immaculately. And then about 3min and 20 seconds in they drop a violin line with the human beat box horns and the hairs on my neck stand on end and goosebumps flood my arms. It may not be your average rock fan's idea of haunting, but it gets me.
Groon mentioned the Disposable Heroes - great call as "Television" is one of the baddest songs I have encountered in any genre.
Oatmeal, I like that Perceptionists track quite a bit. Is that Jeru the Damaja laying down some rhymes?
On the innovation tip - Antipop Consortium and Prefuse 73 have effectively definitely done some things that fall outside of the ordinary.
Finally, for great story telling and rhymes that are both amusing but full of incisive social commentary while still coming full force with beats and grooves and new sounds, I've got to go for the Goats and _Tricks of the Shade_. If you wanna go there check the title track or "Typical American."
If somebody dials me in on posting tracks to comments, I promise to come back and provide some supporting evidence in the form of audio.
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Great post.
I think what's interesting is the fusion of rock and hip-hop. Despite hip-hop being a newer player to the music game, the impact of the genre has been significant enough to cause a blur between two genres that would otherwise not exist. And frankly, some of the best music out there has been created by groups using both genres well -- take for example, Rage Against the Machine.
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consumerx: That was Akrobatik and Mr. Lif on the verses. Amen on the Roots, they could out rock most rock bands too you know.
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Good morning, gang!
Sorry for the delay in responding; I've spent the last day or two obsessively playing Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and knew when I woke up this morning I knew I'd have to comment here before I picked up the controller or it would be another day lost.
Without a doubt, Cody, the description "haunting" could be attached to that song with a straight face. Starkly beautiful, too; I'll have to track it down. I might tentatively object that the "rapping" sounds suspiciously like singing, and draws its strength more from melody than meter. But this is still just the sort of thing I'd been hoping for. In fact, it qualifies in not one but two of the categories I laid out: it is haunting, and it concerns self-doubt.
By the way; I don't recall insisting (or even implying) "that the music portion of hip hop be separated from its’ larger social context"; I'm not even sure how one would go about doing that. The whole world, including the incomprehension of white ruling-class fossils such as I, is its larger social context, as it is of any kind of music.
I will have to set aside time to explore your suggested playlist at greater leisure; right now there are some Ballas who, like rap and country, cannot be reasoned with, and are proving very difficult to kill...
Bravo!
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Z- If I can somehow turn this into a term paper, much love in your direction..in fact much love wheteher I get a paper out of it or not. I love a good,fair, and friendly e-fight.
Robert Hunter in a hip hop thread,Bruce..Love it.
Amiel, thanks for following the thread and all your contributions.
consumerx..very cool vid..yeah, The Goats, I remember that record. Out on Sony, next to no promotion..I guess "pro-black" was out of style then. Anti Pop and Prefuse, I'm gonna have to check out. I have name recognition only. In case no one pointed it out, to add a song to a comment, open a new window and hit add post. What i do is put nonsense letters in artist and title, hit audio,and upload a track. After it loads a code will appear in the post body,cut the code out of the post and paste it into the comment.
I am says: Hokey Smokes, man did this take off.
Why is 'Poets" the oldest and then nothing till the 90's? even though I'm far from an expert on current hip hop, i wanted to showcase mostly new "progressive" things, plus I was trying to fulfill my request for 5 heartbreakers and 5 haunters.
Where is Flash, for gods sake UTFO . You turned your back on the 80's and 90's, didn't you? Flash was in the video, albeit briefly (although as a youth when I saw that tiny segment it blew my skull open)..but I didn't want to turn it into an old school thing or a full on history lesson, by including Gil Scott, James Brown, or Cab Calloway. Maybe a roots mix is in order though, up from the influences to what I feel is the dawn of modern hip hop, Eric B is President.
Pickin' brain that's all, no malice, fake or otherwise,. No offense taken, real or imagined
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Man. whew! This is massive. I bow to you in reverence (and wonder how you got such a long post to not be truncated). I really got nothing else to say or add.
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Cody, I don't have time to write in depth posts so I piggyback off of you. It is my pleasure.
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Whatever you bring is always top notch..anytime Amiel.
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Here a teaser Cody. Nice chord progression, the sound palette and sampling is what made Prefuse initially innovative.
Robot Snares Got No Cadence or Balance - Prefuse 73My Trusted MOGs
oooh, that break into the piano part is way cool..deconstructing hip hop deconstruction..dig it. Really lovely.
DJ Shadow - Midnight In A Perfect World
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Take that. (The Goats, "Typical American")
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Perhaps you could Muxtape this mix!
http://muxtape.com
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Thanks (terminator)consumer x..very Cypress Hillian. they were label mates right?
contra-12 Songs..I can't handle 12, my brain would explode...
Ultramagnetic MC's-Ease Back Nice Meters sample and, I think, the same horn smaple as the PE tune (JB's-Blow your Head).
The Roots-Long Time Notice on Peddi Peddi's verses how he name checks Ultramagnetic..
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Nice post, Cody. Lots of good choices here. I'd substitute "One Love" for "NY State of Mind", at least if you're going for poignancy. I echo the Prefuse73 recommendation - I think "Suite for the Way Things Change" would be a fresher choice than "Midnight In A Perfect World" (which is, admittedly, a great tune and a personal favorite).
Maybe rock just has a hard time in these debates because it's been subject to the harmful effects of big label commercialization for longer than hip-hop has. Both genres are reeling, IMO. You can see a lot of people who really want a deep musical & cultural connection with rock reaching for increasingly unmarketable (or are they?) musics... maybe some day Pig Destroyer will be on the radio. I can dream, anyway.
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We were talkin about the Wu recently. I thought this might be relevant for both posts...
Genius/GZA B.I.B.L.E. (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)