Is Coldplay's Chris Martin An Idiot?
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Artist:
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Album:Viva La Vida Or Death And All His Friends
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I am no Harvard Law graduate, but I'm pretty sure if you are being sued for plagiarism, it'd be a really really good idea to not go on a radio show and say you've ripped off other artists. Coldplay's Chris Martin did just that on a BBC Radio 1 show today. Martin and his band Coldplay are being sued by guitarist Joe Satriani, who believes Coldplay's successful "Viva La Vida" title-track is a direct rip-off of his "If I Could Fly" (see below video).
Martin gets on the Chris Moyles radio show today and admits the band's 2000 single 'Shiver" was a failed attempt to sound like Jeff Buckley.
"It's a blatant Jeff Buckley attempt," Martin said on the radio show. "Not quite as good, that's what I think. We were 21 and he was very much a hero, and as with those things it tends to filter through."
Like I said, I'm no lawyer, but if I were I would use this little sound bit against Martin in a court of law. For example, me as the lawyer for Satriani: "Your honor, this isn't the first time the defendant has plagiarized from other artists. In a December 18th, 2008 interview with BBC Radio 1 Martin even admitted to ripping off Jeff Buckley. This type of plagiarism cannot be tolerated and must stop before ..." jada jada enter more laywer speak here. Someone should make Satriani a little YouTube clip of "Shiver" and the Jeff Buckley rip-off side by side. Gotta find the Buckley tune first. Luckily for Coldplay Buckley won't be suing from six feet under.
Do you agree?
Comments (35)
Totally agree... dude is a moron
Satriani is right, the melodies are identical and he will win, hands down.
I forget where I read it (probably from you!), but I recall him saying that for their latest album, the band would listen to what other artists were doing and trying to incorporate that into their sound. I thought it sounded a bit fishy.
He's said similar things to the British press about trying to rip off Buckley and Radiohead in the past, so I'm not surprised he wants to harp on about selling millions of records with songs that use 'filtered influences'. The guy's a grade A+ berk.
I don't agree with you (charley) or msquared or vannatta, and here's why:
There's a difference between plagiarism and trying to sound like someone. Case in point? Oasis & the Beatles. Or even Tears for Fears' "Sowing The Seeds of Love" and the Beatles. Specifically, that song is an admitted attempt to do something in the grand vein of the Beatles, but is not plagiaristic.
Now, as to the specific songs mentioned, if one listens to the full Satriani song and not just the riff in question, the entire song does not revolve around that riff. In fact, that little riff is one bit at the beginning of the 5+ minute song. (A boring song, but that's my opinion)
The Coldplay song has the riff as a major part of the song. Are they similar? Yes. Is that evidence that Coldplay outright stole the music from Joe? In my eyes, no. And their admission that they've tried to sound like other artists in the past isn't relevatory towards that point, either. It means they have musical heroes that they've tried to emulate, to whatever degree of success.
Yeah, I'm more inclined to agree with SamTheButcher on this one. Kurt Cobain has said in interviews that he was trying to rip off the Pixies with Nirvana, especially in the beginning. Even the Beatles sounded like the Beach Boys in "Back in the U.S.S.R."
I think these examples are picking up on stuff that's in the ether and making it your own. Mentioning the band or artist that you're "ripping off" in an interview is probably supposed to be an homage, although I definitely agree that the timing is unfortunate at best. Chris Martin is probably feeling cocky.
"Is Coldplay's Chris Martin An Idiot?"
Yes. The answer is always yes. No matter what the topic or context, the correct answer will always be yes.
However, this question also leads directly to "Where should Gwenyth Paltrow shove GOOP.com?". Can anyone guess the answer?
Yup. AND his band sucks.
;-)
I disagree with both grove and SamTheButcher on this one - as this particular case isn't whether or not there is a Soundalike recording happening - if it were I would agree - you can't copyright a style, or a sound, or a genre, etc...
But to this trained musician's and professional's ears, in this case those melodies are _exactly the same. Exactly. That's a case for copyright infringement.
I'm in the middle of the discussion. I don't think ChrisMartin is a total idiot (he has a good sense of humor, that saves him in my book)...but my take is he probably doesn't care or isn't too worried about what can happen with a plagirism court case. Obviously it wouldn't be wise to be on about how you try to copy artists, even if its just for a "filter" effect.
My personal opinion is if you attempt to copy something, and end up with something completely different...you're in good shape. But I've worked with many artists who do just try to copy, and end up copying! I wonder if that makes sense...Anyway, it seems as though Chris Martin might be a blatant copier.
I'm not a fan anyway...would rather spend my time listening to the records they listen to for inspiration, haha. Same applies for a lot of these sort of copy cat artists that take it to far (ehem Oasis, Strokes).
By the way, doesn't mean that they'll win - because to Sam's point - they may not have used enough of it ... I think that the ruling is that you can use 2 bars of anything over and over again... but obviously it will be up to the courts to decide. Regardless of what they say, my money is on Satriani ... melody is the same (both tone and rhythm) - and it will make it easier for even a lay person to deliberate, as even the tempos are pretty damn close.
It will be interesting to see what happens with this oen.
I vote idiot.
I am not as sure as some of you that a jury or a judge, if it goes that far, would see a similar melody line as enough to result in sustaining a charge of plagarism. Musicians frequently "borrow", sometimes don't credit properly. The Stones had to 'fess up and pay some royalties. A jury found George Harrison unwittingly copied He's So Fine in making My Sweet Lord which is lyrically, if not melodically, a far remove. Perhaps Martin was unguarded and careless in his comments, but when all is said and done, an apology and nominal payment to Satriani would be an appropriate outcome.
I don't know about this one...I could find you those same chord changes in a hundred tunes. I mean...does the beginning of this Kinks tune below sound like anything you might have heard before?!?! Worse has been gotten away with and always will...
amusing thread. it will be interesting to see how this plays in court. the chords behind the melody in each case is different, and the melody itself is not identical. can't blame joe for trying, and it's silly to call chris martin an idiot. he's being forthright, and i don't think he has much to worry about. hard to know what precedent this might set however, and i wonder what robert johnson would have done if he and a little army of lawyers had been around in the early 60's when half the bands in england were "writing" his songs. and ma rainey and so many others who wrote songs that later writers turned into gold. the thing is it's hard to quantify. if i heard a melody as a kid, completely forgot the source of it, and wrote a song based on it, have i plagiarized? how different is that from sitting down and copping a melody from someone else's record, and then copyrighting it under my own name? very different in intent, not necessarily very different in result. it is the nature of music that people absorb what they hear, repeat what they like, expand on it, change the context, the key, the words - there are a zillion parameters. what's the saying? "brilliance borrows, genius steals?" as for who is a thief and who is a genius, that is not always easy to quantify.
he's a LOSER
there are 2 other songs I've heard that sound similiar, but
23 million albums sold by c.p. makes this a really good case for satch
You guys ever compared the first verse of "What I Got" by Sublime with the verse of "Lady Madonna" by the Beatles... Same type of deal, but didn't go to court... Satriani's lookin for a merry x-mas.
"...the video mashing up both videos had actually altered to make them sound alike, and if you listened to the originals, they were not nearly as close. They are in different tempos/keys to make them sound alike. Another user also pointed us to a Cat Stevens song Love/Heaven from (at least) 1973 that sounds quite similar as well, suggesting that if Coldplay owes Satriani any money, Satriani actually owes Cat Stevens quite a bit as well. Or there's the song Hearts by Marty Balin of Jefferson Starship... written in 1981. Or any of the other dozen or so songs that others have pointed out sound quite similar -- and if mixed professionally to change the tempo could probably sound like a pretty exact match."
From Tech Dirt (full article here).
EEEDIOTTT!!!!!
It's Ok to express your opinion by explaining your points of view but I think the name calling and the insults are uncalled for.
I think you are an idiot my friend! Saying one is trying to sound like Jeff buckley does not mean they are ripping him off.
Viva la Vida is a good album but afer hearing the song "Lost!" I'm beginning to think they are running out of steam a bit. Coldplay have done an amazing job writing songs for the past 4 yrs and I do like the song "lost!' but I don't think they put nearly as much effort into it as previous albums. I hyped Coldplay on Everhype.com and gave them 87% which I think is fairly accurate. http://www.everhype.com/hyper/mikeborgia?X=S2297 If you get on there rate me a 5 and request friendship
Whoever said Coldplay is the next U2 should be shot.
The major problem that exists is that, eventually, you might end up releasing a song that is similar enough to another to warrant lawsuits, amended credits and such.
Do I think that Chris Martin and Coldplay blatantly ripped off Satriani? No, but it don't think that Satriani shouldn't at least try to make some cheese off of the similarity.
Do I think that Chris Martin's a moron for bringing up other examples of songs he and Coldplay may or may not have ripped off? Yes. And he should keep his gob shut permanently.
Had to log in here just to cast my vote:
YES - IDIOT!
and he stinks.
and he's a theif.
I hope Joe Satriani gets a BIG payday out of this.
I tried to post the same vid as capndad awhile back and I think it got eaten by the MOGosphere. Very good (and long) vid on the music theory of it. Please note, however, that there's also a "part 2" to his postulations.
I dislike unoriginal stealers of other people's music. Boo to Coldplay.
First of all, everyone is influenced by whatever is taking place around them at any given time. Artists of all kinds are not immune to this, and many artists actually remark on this fact by playing with it, paying hommage to their influences (as in the examples used above, the Beatles mimicking the Beach Boys in Back in the USSR). That's what allusion is all about, and every artist (music isn't alone) will involve allusions to earlier influences and works. Allusion is not the same thing as plagiarism, but with accessibility to media now being so open in a way that's never existed before, the definitions become blurry.
That being said, if you listen to both the Coldplay tune in question and Satriani's tune, one played over the other, not only does the melody line match, but the tunes are in the same key and tempo. And this goes on far longer than two bars. I think the plagiarism charge will be taken seriously in this case because the similarities between the two pieces are substantial.
I don't think Martin is an idiot for talking about wanting to sound like his influences (so many millions of pop artists loved Buckley's music so much, and so many have admittedly said they've wanted to do a take of his sound--Radiohead is one example that comes to mind immediately, and now Martin...and Buckley loved Nina Simone and Edith Piaf and wanted to sound like them and said so...and on and on...). But I do think he'd better take the plagiarism charge very seriously.
I doubt this case will ever see the inside of a courtroom, and I suspect Satriani will settle out of court for a very tidy sum. It may be one of the best things to ever happen to him--imitation (flattery!) plus compensation from the sales of a wildly successful single he might never have been able to sell as well himself.
well said NAS.
i think he's an idiot but not for that reason. You're a rock star married to a movie star rolling in dough and get to play music for a living and people love you for it...how about enjoying yourself every once and a while and stop being so pissy...
NAS - I think, in the video, the coldplay track is adjusted a bit. It sounds a little higher and faster than the regular song. Not much, though. And it doesn't change that the tune is very similar. But again, the Satriani song is much more than just that riff - that's just one single part of a 5 minute song. The Coldplay tune is more central.
I hope they just settle, like you said. It'd be pretty easy to do. That Record of the Year Grammy would be hard to swallow, though. :)
There are only so many notes and so many combinations you can make. Eventually there are bound to be bits of one song in another. To make a plagarism determination, you have to look at how the music is used and if they sound the same.
To my ear they are different because 1) Chris Martin is singing the melody, not playing it on a guitar 2) The melody I heard was less than 10 notes, which isn't much.
They just evoke totally different feelings. Not really similar.
There is a huge difference between plagiarism and being influenced.
Also, intellectual property laws are just fucked at this point. It's very silly to claim you own an idea (or a melody). Ever hear that old saying "1% inspiration, 99% persperation"?
A hasbeen suing a major artist for having a song that sounds similar is ridiculous. Even if he did "plagiarize" (which I don't think they did necessarily) his version is still considerably different and has been much more successful.
Honestly, how many people today had even heard of Satriani's song, let alone listened to it, before Satriani decided to sue over it? It's more of a media ploy than anything.