THE MUSIC BLOGGING HIVE MIND

I think I'm getting tired of "post-punk post-rock"

Posted over 2 years ago
Last Friday, the 2nd of March, I saw Do Make Say Think play. It was the first time I had seen them in three or four years, when they played a double bill with Fly Pan Am. That concert stands as one of my live music milestones. I was just starting University and was really into the whole Montreal experimental sound. The airy closing strains of "The Landlord is Dead" basically pulled me through the end of High School. So it goes without saying that when I saw them live I was bowled over by the emotional power of both groups.This time, several years later, Do Make played another great show. But I just couldn't get into it as much. I've purchased the new album, and have enjoyed it quite a bit, but I just didn't get the same kind of ecstatic rush that I did last time. It's not the band's fault - they played very well, probably better than previously. They integrated excellently and displayed rather clever passages of music, but they are so much different live than they are in the studio. They are probably one of the only "post rock" bands that *really* use the studio as an instrument, employing all sorts of colourful trickery to make the music more engaging. But when I saw them play... it was just build, climax, build, climax. It was good for sure, but I couldn't get into it at all.It was kind of like when I saw Silver Mt. Zion last year, I was more interested in opener Carla Bozulich's bizarre narratives than SMZ's doleful dirge. DMST's poweful live set had nowhere near the same impact on me as the Esbjorn Svensson Trio had last June, in a much smaller, quieter setting. I suppose my musical tastes have moved on, and because of that I feel further removed than the person I was in high school.And now, a word about the genre descriptor "post-rock." I was thinking about how DMST are about the closest to post-punk as they can get while still being post-rock.What do I mean by that? Well, I think post-rock is the WRONG descriptor to use for bands like Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Explosions in the Sky, Mogwai, etc. Those types of bands use a basic structure of rock and roll that has more in common with post-punk, at least to my ears. They are still all about rocking out, despite the odd stylish frill here and there."Post-rock" I believe is a genre of music that pulls past the structure of a rock song. And yes, I realize that one can react to an established tradition by utilizing the language of that very tradition, but I do not think groups like EitS or even the politically-charged Godspeed are reacting to rock. Godspeed seems much more post-punk in its reaction - socially conscious, but also sensitive (or at least they attempted to be). They still fully enjoy ROCKING OUT. They use the language AND form of rock and roll. My favourite progression of this is of course when everything suddenly turned into metal - Neurosis, ISIS, etc. It seems to work better for me, anyway.No, I think the description "post-rock" applies much more accurately to groups like Talk Talk, Tortoise, Trans Am, Fly Pan Am, Fridge and the like. In fact, the term "post-rock" was originally used in a review of Talk Talk's "Laughing Stock" (someone find a reference for that, I'm too lazy). When you listen to these groups, you'll hear a perversion of the rock song, mixing it with jazz or modernist structures. Every so often a composition will reveal the form of a rock song, but played in an unconventional way, soon to be swept along by another absurd musical figure. The expressive potential of rock is borrowed to facilitate the communication of more difficult forms of music, or it is pulled apart into little pieces and shuffled around and examined. Going back to DMST, I would say they participate in this form of experimentation especially through the way they use studio production. They straddle the line quite gracefully. I've been distracted a few times too many, and have lost my train of thought, so I'll end the argument there. What do you think? What would be a better genre tag to use, if any?Also, if any of you are wondering, I AM still working on my best-of 2006 list. In fact, the list is ready, but I am woefully behind on the write-ups for each item. Unfortunately that takes time and I have been very lazy. Soon...

Comments (6)

  1. spaceling says Thank you! I totally agree and I've never been able to articulate it as well as you just did. This is why Trans Am's Surrender to the Night really helps to define post-rock for me and sounds so different from these other bands with their incredibly emotional walls of sound that affect me more as intensely ambient (or rock-ambient -- but never post-ambient rock ;)
    Permalink posted 03/05/2007
  2. BarrieSutcliffe says Yes! You're very right by saying "EMOTIONAL walls of sound." Do you think this could be described as "Romantic?" (in the 19th century sense of sublime, etc)
    Permalink posted 03/05/2007
  3. spaceling says That's an interesting question. Asked differently, might Debussy and Ravel recognize it? Maybe Mahler, I think, from the essays of his I've read. My gut feeling is... that this is more kin to some very interesting threads where ambient and punk and metal come together in the late 80s, heavy on the drone, but peaking with epiphanal sounds. I'm thinking of rockers who found they could get into the peaks and depths of ambient with analog guitar peddles just as well as the artists like Kim Cascone that were experimenting with digital noise. The folks who run the Kranky label know the answer to this. I'm just guessing... but remembering vaguely that Sonic Boom of Spacement 3 was attending Pauline Oliveros' Deep Listening retreats, and Brian Eno's EG label stuff was still being listened to in art-punk circles -- at least I can attest to this in my personal experience. I don't know.
    Permalink posted 03/05/2007
  4. BarrieSutcliffe says What you just wrote reminds me of an online conversation I had with a friend, where we were discussing Glenn Branca. I likened Branca's huge symphonies of building, ambient guitar noise to post-punk-post-rock (you know, the thing we're trying to describe). The same could be said for Rhys Chatham and some Sonic Youth stuff. They all rely on repetition, increasing volume, melodic breakdowns, and brisk drumming, yet they also comprise mostly of shifting swaths of ambient harmonic noise. And maybe combining this with Punk and Hardcore is where groups like Slint and Mogwai fit in. Perhaps we're talking about a mutation of Totalism, then? Hmmm! I'm not sure. One can definitely catch a lot of Oliveros Deep Listening in newer "ambient" works like Stars of the Lid (kranky), who make that kind of "drift rock" relying on composition but very very slowly. And indeed if I think about a lot of passages in, say for example, some Godspeed songs, they are generally made up of long ambient moments of held notes, or found sounds, or a small repeating set of notes (that makes me think simultaneously of punk rock and, for some reason, ragas). Hm, I don't know where I was going. I think there's something there, though.
    Permalink posted 03/05/2007
  5. spaceling says I was only becoming aware of it with Windy & Carl who got an album on Darla's Bliss Out series in 1995 (or was it 1996). Kranky's the place since W&C ended up there. Only a few years later a ton of garage bands like Tristeza are forming, true shoegazing, an unpretentious counterpoint to synth havy space music. But even at Chuck Van Zyl's gathering series you'll find the two come together. So long as I'm pontificating, I'll say, in an epic way, you could imagine this phenomena as the reformation of prog-rock with it's punk schism through the prog branch of ambient and art rock. Btw, could you turn me onto some Sonic Youth stuff I might like, since they have a vast catalogue and I've had some difficulty finding the pieces you're describing.
    Permalink posted 03/05/2007
  6. BarrieSutcliffe says I did a bit of looking at Discogs and found that a lot of the Sonic Youth sound I was thinking about is actually pretty recent. I was thinking about this album, which is only seven years old. I'd say a lot of their early recordings, too, have a lot more repetitious, rough vibe, since they'd just finished playing a lot of shows with Branca. It wouldn't do to look at much of their 90's output, since they were very melodic then. I think your idea about punk re-uniting with prog have merit. There's definitely a lot more flamboyance to this stuff. I'm thinking about an example, and the first thing that comes to mind is how Tool went from beinig rather straight-ahead hardcore into an odd amalgam of metal and prog, but not so prog that they became Dream Theatre. And you can definitely hear a lot of Tool in bands like ISIS or Minsk who combine Mogwai and Neurosis, another band that I would connect to too since they started out as hardcore then progressed into very technical, elaborate arrangements. And I don't think we need to talk about the connection of prog to ambient, as that one's pretty obvious. Man, there's all sorts of stuff involved here that I didn't really think of before. So we've got... Punk Rock & Prog Rock & Post Punk Ambient then Deep Listening then Drone Totalism & early 90's shoegaze/"alternative" Metal and Hardcore Hmmmmm.
    Permalink posted 03/06/2007

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